Proper recording technique when dealing with dialouge overlap

[Joe Riggs]

What's the ideal procedure for recording intense scenes where actors overlap their dialogue naturally, even when one of them is off camera or it is an over the shoulder shot. I've been getting a number of scenes lately where this is occurring and obviously this makes each cut jarring. 

 

 

For example:

 

An intense scene, we are over the shoulder of Character B, looking at Character A. Character B is approaching Character A to kill her.  Character B has most of the dialogue but Character A has a couple lines and is also supposed to breathing really hard and be scared.

 

Let's say, the director wants the best sound and most flexibility in post so he is willing to adjust the actors.  So is it as simple as, "Character B for this shot just mime the words"?     

 

Then for the reverse, when we are looking at Character B, would you just say "Character A for this shot, just mime the breathing"?    

[RPSharman]

Yes. If possible.

What I typically do is mic both characters, with two booms and/or two lavs. Consistency is important for both sides of coverage, so if you've only boomed one side, you must boom same character on the other side. Same perspective too. That way if there are overlaps, the dialog editors have similar sound to work with. Overlaps, if unavoidable, should be as consistent as possible. Breaths are difficult, and should be avoided off camera.

Overlaps don't offer much flexibility in post. They can be cleaned up in a dialog edit if the overlaps don't happen every time. Or they'll just force the cut. But sometimes asking actors to not overlap will make the performance stale. So it really depends on the situation.

We are telling stories and recording performances. Sometimes you just can't get in the way of that.

[Wandering Ear]

I always bring it up with the director, discus the situation, and defer to them wether they feel they need to keep the overlaps to preserve the performance, or if the overlaps are unnecessary.  If we keep the overlaps, I will often try to get the lines wild without overlaps, which can help a dialog editor a lot.  They can often drop in a single word, or just the end of the word from the wild lines without feeling a performance difference.  If flexibility is important to the director, then they should work with the actors to stop the overlaps.  It's a judgement call, and the answer will always be different.

[Philip Perkins]

How much time are they willing to invest in getting the lines clear?  Are the actors good enough to avoid overlaps and not suck?  Will the director live with the interruption of the flow of the scene to get the pieces that are needed?  That's down to their filmmaking style and how far behind schedule we are at the moment, often.  ADs have become very hostile to taking time for this kind of thing anymore, I have observed.

 

philp

[Constantin]

I usually let them overlap when they are both in the picture, but ask for separation in the close ups. When the actors are pros this works well. If not, They will refuse my request and I will then ask to get a at least a boom-able frame. They tend to comply then.

Overlaps are not something I'll ever discuss with the AD. This is the director's decision only

[Joshua Anderson]

There are different types of overlapping scenes and sometimes there isn't a clear cut rule on it besides what is going to cut in the edit. If actors can maintain the same overlapping points from shot to shot then as long as the micing is also maintained then it shouldn't be a problem in the edit. 2 camera cross coverage with similar frame sizes is great for this.

 

Sometimes DP's don't want to light 2 different directions and then you might have 2 cameras on one actor. It gets troublesome when you film the second actor later, because now with the established overlaps, you need to have sort of matching micing positions. For example, say you shoot the first character with a medium and profile as a 2 camera setup. Then when you move to the second character, you shoot a matching profile, but not a matching medium, but say a wider shot that doesn't allow the boom mic(s) to be where they were for the first setup you have a problem. It's not just the typical, shitty wide and tight, you might not be able to cut with the overlapping dialogue because when you go between profile shot to profile shot in the edit, the transition (or overlapping) section won't sonically match. 

 

Personally, I like to be able to play the overlaps. I'll try to nudge our way into getting clean versions or hope the actors naturally give it that way on later takes or pickups. But there are times when it is certainly a problem:

 

Overlaps between phone calls or people speaking to each other through a speaker system (like in a visiting room in prison) don't work in the edit because one character needs to be given a filter effect in post. If the lines are married, then it doesn't work.

 

Sometimes loud argument scenes are problematic. I recently had a scene with two yelling actors who are far enough apart to need 2 booms to cover. But when they overlapped, and I tried to play 2 mics up at once, the extra reverb in the room was dreadful. 

 

We had a scene in the last TV show I worked on where 1 woman spoke in Spanish and another woman translated for her (plus two guys speaking in English, all around a small conference table). In shots featuring the two women, we let them overlap. But I told the AD's and Director that also shooting a close up of one of the women wouldn't work as they wouldn't be able to recreate a translated overlap on the other woman's close up. I told them we could shoot two close ups of the women at the same time, as long as the Director accepted the marriage between the lines in their coverage as it forces certain edits. 

 

I do sometimes take the tact of "we can make the overlaps sound good, but it might not work in your edit." If the overlap is one actor stepping on the back end of another actor's line, and we're trying to protect the edit from the overlap, I might suggest the actor being stepped on to say a few more words before being cut off. And then when we turn around and film the interrupting actor, we'll ask the actor who is being interrupted to cut themselves off before being interrupted. 

 

If the overlap is someone interjecting in the middle of a longer line or paragraph, then I might ask the person interjecting to hold their line until we do their coverage and then ask the other actor to leave an space in their speech for the interjection (since they are now off camera). 

 

If the overlap is just two actors talking to each other and not listening to one another, I'll try to get them to separate it. It all really comes down to being able to create a scenario with the dialogue that doesn't disrupt the actor's performance and works in the edit. But one of the reasons, I like working with 2 boom operators is so even unplanned overlaps are completely fine for us. I'll play it in the mix, and if the performance is there, then the edit will work. 

 

I did have a director say to me once on a TV show that he wanted to play the overlaps because when he had listened to his sound mixer in the past and kept the dialogue clean, the editors never recreated the overlap in post. So he felt he needed to protect the overlap by forcing it. Also, the scene involved two pro actors who kept the overlaps in the same spot in each take.

 

Sorry for the boring length. Bottom line for me, no real rules. Just try to think of how it'll be put together later. 

 

Josh

[jrd456]

Overlapping ties the overlapped dialogue together and can extremely limit choices in editing.----Try everthing possible not to overlap while shooting,do it in editing.---I'm mainly talking about on cam. overlapping with off cam.

 

                                                                                       J.D.

[Joe Riggs]

 

Sometimes loud argument scenes are problematic.

 

Yep, "intense" scenes are the ones that cause the most issues for me at least, particularly if the other character is breathing throughout. The initial example, of a character being attacked in an O/S shot is something I've come across multiple times but from the replies I'm gathering the practice of having the actor whose shoulder we are over just mime their lines is rarely done (understandably because it can hinder performance)?  

[Philip Perkins]

Yep, "intense" scenes are the ones that cause the most issues for me at least, particularly if the other character is breathing throughout. The initial example, of a character being attacked in an O/S shot is something I've come across multiple times but from the replies I'm gathering the practice of having the actor whose shoulder we are over just mime their lines is rarely done (understandably because it can hinder performance)?  

 

Yes, not "real" enough for them.  An actor who is smart and has been through the wringer a few times re ADR will often get it about not overlapping in some situations and work out the performance for those shots with their fellow actors.   The worst issues I've had have been with newbie or non-actors who don't understand the editorial process.

 

p

Edited May 26, 2015 by Philip Perkins

[Scott Smith]

This is always a tough decision. If the director insists on having the actors overlap, I just make it a point to make him aware of how it will tie the editors hands, and mark the log as "overlaps ok'ed by director". I also ask the script supervisor to make a note as well.

I always fight to at least get the dialogue clean in the CU's though.

-S

"I don't care what they're talking about, all I want is a nice fat recording".

Harry Caul "The Conversation"

[daniel]

There are different types of overlapping scenes and sometimes there isn't a clear cut rule on it besides what is going to cut in the edit. If actors can maintain the same overlapping points from shot to shot then as long as the micing is also maintained then it shouldn't be a problem in the edit. 2 camera cross coverage with similar frame sizes is great for this.

 

Sometimes DP's don't want to light 2 different directions and then you might have 2 cameras on one actor. It gets troublesome when you film the second actor later, because now with the established overlaps, you need to have sort of matching micing positions. For example, say you shoot the first character with a medium and profile as a 2 camera setup. Then when you move to the second character, you shoot a matching profile, but not a matching medium, but say a wider shot that doesn't allow the boom mic(s) to be where they were for the first setup you have a problem. It's not just the typical, shitty wide and tight, you might not be able to cut with the overlapping dialogue because when you go between profile shot to profile shot in the edit, the transition (or overlapping) section won't sonically match. 

 

Personally, I like to be able to play the overlaps. I'll try to nudge our way into getting clean versions or hope the actors naturally give it that way on later takes or pickups. But there are times when it is certainly a problem:

 

Overlaps between phone calls or people speaking to each other through a speaker system (like in a visiting room in prison) don't work in the edit because one character needs to be given a filter effect in post. If the lines are married, then it doesn't work.

 

Sometimes loud argument scenes are problematic. I recently had a scene with two yelling actors who are far enough apart to need 2 booms to cover. But when they overlapped, and I tried to play 2 mics up at once, the extra reverb in the room was dreadful. 

 

We had a scene in the last TV show I worked on where 1 woman spoke in Spanish and another woman translated for her (plus two guys speaking in English, all around a small conference table). In shots featuring the two women, we let them overlap. But I told the AD's and Director that also shooting a close up of one of the women wouldn't work as they wouldn't be able to recreate a translated overlap on the other woman's close up. I told them we could shoot two close ups of the women at the same time, as long as the Director accepted the marriage between the lines in their coverage as it forces certain edits. 

 

I do sometimes take the tact of "we can make the overlaps sound good, but it might not work in your edit." If the overlap is one actor stepping on the back end of another actor's line, and we're trying to protect the edit from the overlap, I might suggest the actor being stepped on to say a few more words before being cut off. And then when we turn around and film the interrupting actor, we'll ask the actor who is being interrupted to cut themselves off before being interrupted. 

 

If the overlap is someone interjecting in the middle of a longer line or paragraph, then I might ask the person interjecting to hold their line until we do their coverage and then ask the other actor to leave an space in their speech for the interjection (since they are now off camera). 

 

If the overlap is just two actors talking to each other and not listening to one another, I'll try to get them to separate it. It all really comes down to being able to create a scenario with the dialogue that doesn't disrupt the actor's performance and works in the edit. But one of the reasons, I like working with 2 boom operators is so even unplanned overlaps are completely fine for us. I'll play it in the mix, and if the performance is there, then the edit will work. 

 

I did have a director say to me once on a TV show that he wanted to play the overlaps because when he had listened to his sound mixer in the past and kept the dialogue clean, the editors never recreated the overlap in post. So he felt he needed to protect the overlap by forcing it. Also, the scene involved two pro actors who kept the overlaps in the same spot in each take.

 

Sorry for the boring length. Bottom line for me, no real rules. Just try to think of how it'll be put together later. 

 

Josh

Joshua, I really like this post, very usefully nuanced. I fear i may have been a little less than nuanced in the past with my dealing of these situations (perhaps even a little contemptuous :-( EG: If the writer/director hasn't worked out in writing or rehearsal they want overlaps and essentially scripted this, all I'm saying is "don't overlap" and when they do, I flag it and get the overlapped lines wild (and not overlapped). 'baked in' flexibility is hard thing to achieve especially if you fear others will hide their incompetence unresolved thinking by blaming you when they're sitting with the editor. I'm sure i need to look at my approach on this.

 

thank you,

 

dan.

[Joshua Anderson]

Thank you for the kind words, Dan. 

I always assume we only have x number of favors or times we get to chime in about sound issues. So I try to make as much work as possible so I can save the favors for the most important times. 

 

Josh

[Jan McL]

Happy to have this subject come up given recent experience that taught me some and made me more confident about my overlap instincts.

The director/king's MO was to state to the actors as we rolled, "Don't worry about overlaps," when he was going for a higher-energy performance. Loved those bum-covering moments a lot. His public and recorded statements kept me at the cart and saved us all time.

If a situation arose when I thought the choice might severely inhibit editorial choices to the story's detriment, I would bring it to the king's attention. Often times he would agree and assure me he'd get the closeups clean. Sometimes he did. Sometimes not. Once actors find the rhythm of a comic or emotional scene, it's tough to reign 'em in.

Later approached an editor to learn how it was going for him relative to the considerable overlaps I always had covered one way or another, and he said they were able to cut it together just fine albeit with some extra work.

[tonetripper]

I'll raise it to the directors attention but that's where the fight usually ends. Most of them should know better IMHO. Saying that, the scissors are much finer and with many more tools at the editors disposal to seam together their edit. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mikewest]

Overlaps

Allowed if both actors in shot

Not in single close ups

If they happen mike both sides

Inform director and put on sound log

Overlaps do not affect my invoice!

 

mike

[John Blankenship]

...

Overlaps do not affect my invoice!

Love the line!  

That's what I remind myself about many issues over which I have no control.

[Jan McL]

Yeah.

I could do better with that meditation.

[Rachel Cameron]

Sorry for the boring length. Bottom line for me, no real rules. Just try to think of how it'll be put together later. 

 

Josh

Neither boring, nor lengthy. +1 for salience.