Red Work

[Philip Perkins]

From a post point of view, I think the jury is still out. All the Red projects I've worked on so far have looked soft to me. I think the Panavision Genesis makes much better pictures and is a lot more rock-solid in terms of reliability. (The new Benjamin Button movie looks extraordinarily good -- 1930s, 1940s, and 1960s looks, all done electronically with the Genesis.) The Red is noisier and softer by comparison, in my experience.

On the other hand, you can't beat it for the money. I've already advised clients that the Red looks better than 16mm negative, and I think that's a slam-dunk deal. And when you put the Red in the hands of somebody who really knows how to light, it's capable of decent results. Soderberg's Che is a good example.

I totally agree that a clap-slate is still necessary on these systems. Even on a surefire timecode rig, you never know when gremlins will get in the works. The key is for camera operators to stop treating the camera as if it were film, and start the Red camera rolling earlier than normal to give time for everything to lock up. They need to treat it as if it were a DAT machine. I tell the operators, "at least count to 5 before saying 'speed.'"

--Marc W.

Totally.  I like to tell people that after years of TC slates and then no slates (or ID slates only) in video, that with the Red and the need for double system audio w/ the newer dinky- and burrito-cams I went out and bought an old-fashioned clap slate--something I hadn't owned since the 1970s.  For a recent doco job I got my old film-doc "bloop light" slate working again too.  Lesson: never sell anything.

Philip Perkins

[Marc Wielage]

My bad on the Viper (vs. the Genesis). But there were digital dailies on Benjamin Button. I saw some of them, and they looked really good.

--Marc W.

[Arnold F.]

I understand the need for this type of discussion but, when reading it, I can't help lamenting the conditions that require us to deal with recording sound to this camera with any intention other than making a crude, emergency-only back-up.  That productions spend so much on this camera, spread and buy it's hype (justified or otherwise) and then ask us to treat it as a serious recorder for all the reasons so frequently heard these days (money, no time to sync double-system, editors don't don't know how/don't want to sync, etc.) is depressing in what is, in my opinion, an Orwellian irony.  If the 788T had a little HD camera in it would a producer ask the DP to shoot their feature with it? 

A.

[cmgoodin]

I understand the need for this type of discussion but, when reading it, I can't help lamenting the conditions that require us to deal with recording sound to this camera with any intention other than making a crude, emergency-only back-up.  That productions spend so much on this camera, spread and buy it's hype (justified or otherwise) and then ask us to treat it as a serious recorder for all the reasons so frequently heard these days (money, no time to sync double-system, editors don't don't know how/don't want to sync, etc.) is depressing in what is, in my opinion, an Orwellian irony.  If the 788T had a little HD camera in it would a producer ask the DP to shoot their feature with it? 

A.

But in effect that is already happening.  The S-TWO recorder used to record Benjamin Button and the competing system "Codex"  record the visual and audio information as a separate data recorder.  They both can accommodate up to 2 cameras each with 8 tracks of AES/EBU 24 bit digital audio.  So that that one device can capture the Picture,  Sound, and can create digital dailies and do video assist like playback on the set in any resolution you want including full Hi Def projection.  Also if the Script supervisor has a laptop hooked via WiFi or Ethernet to the Codex system she can do her own continuity checking playbacks from her laptop.  Slating is also handled automatically by the recorder.  So producers are asking a single person (the Data Capture Technician) to do both jobs of recording Visuals and Audio separate from the DP or Mixer.

-----Courtney

[Arnold F.]

I have no objection to technical advancements that result in picture and quality audio being recorded in one place - I'm married neither to the idea of double-system nor the things we do in production to make that work.  It's that my bullshit meter pins when I see productions spending huge sums and attention on one half of the product and then making silly and/or transparent excuses about why it's necessary to compromise the other half.

A.

-----

But in effect that is already happening.  The S-TWO recorder used to record Benjamin Button and the competing system "Codex"  record the visual and audio information as a separate data recorder.  They both can accommodate up to 2 cameras each with 8 tracks of AES/EBU 24 bit digital audio.  So that that one device can capture the Picture,  Sound, and can create digital dailies and do video assist like playback on the set in any resolution you want including full Hi Def projection.  Also if the Script supervisor has a laptop hooked via WiFi or Ethernet to the Codex system she can do her own continuity checking playbacks from her laptop.  Slating is also handled automatically by the recorder.  So producers are asking a single person (the Data Capture Technician) to do both jobs of recording Visuals and Audio separate from the DP or Mixer.

-----Courtney

[Guest BobD]

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I agree with Arnolds concept...

 There are inherent dangers going down this path...  Ask our IA reps about it..

 I have said this before,  The gear is not mine, I don't know how it has been treated or serviced. I do not transport or look out for it. I do not know what has come in it's package or what might be missing.. And I certainly do not get a rental for it's use.

That being said, I am SURELY going to be looked at by everyone on the set when the cameras audio portion decides to quit working, or when the camera comes from another shoot with all the menu functions all F***ed up, and in 10 minutes they want me to fix all their problems...

These days, can we really be responsible for learning about the audio operational menus or functions of ALL the new cameras...  Not MY job.....

  We should politely hand them our audio feeds, any way you want, and let the CAMERA tech deal with getting the machine the audio into it. Then we should go about our business in the manner we always do in a way we can trust and count on.

 For all of you that have been in the position of working with many of the new cameras, one thing usually stands out.  The camera dept. does not give too much of their little bundle of joy away to us so we may get everything all set up.  We are usually fighting a bit to get to the control surfaces to get the thing ready to record...  Yes, even with the nicest of intentions and folks on both ends.  That's how it always seems....  

 That all said,  When I am not in COMPLETE control of the equip., in every way, I don't want the TOTAL responsibility of the final product on it... Hence the NEED for a duel system.... Again, ask IA, that is their stance for many reasons. One of a few things I actually agree with...  OK, I agree with a lot more

Responsibility, Staffing, Proper knowledge of the gear, rental for 695 techs, etc.

First you loose control of THE recording device, then you loose control of the product, then you loose your rental income.....   Next it is your job.

Always demand the duel system, (unless it is a low budget deal), always protect your good name as a recording engineer, always protect your rental income, and ALWAYS protect your job.... Producers desperate to further save on production budget funds originally meant for you, might be spending those funds on more Sushi for the big wigs....  Heck, the camera guy can just record that stuff.... right?

[Philip Perkins]

My work is mostly video these days, and mostly w/ sound going to the camera.  It is true that part of the job nowadays is trying to keep up with the sound issues and specific controls of these cameras, esp. now that there is often no video engineer on board, just the shooter and me and maybe someone with limited skills and experience downloading the cards.  But I still also believe that a professional sound person always has some means of recording sound on their own, w/o the camera--even if you decide not to back up all the audio going to the camera.  I had several experiences back in the 3/4" video days that really hardened my resolve on this subject--times where I could have gotten some really great sfx, ambiances, wild dialog or any sort of extra material that would have been a real contribution to the project.  I'm not talking about having a recorder along that is in a case in your car, I mean a means of recording that is at your fingertips all the time, to catch sound opportunities as they happen.  I will also say that I see sound problems with camera audio MUCH more often now than I did in the Betacam and Digibeta days--even with expensive HD cameras.  With the smaller cams the problems seem to increase exponentially, and backups seem to get used much more often.  Finally, as I've said before on this forum, I see a lot more serious jobs being shot on really small cameras, some capable of quite respectable video but capable of only wretched audio.  Double system audio is not only not dead, I'd say that the historical tide is definitely moving it that direction as more serious jobs work w/ small cams, and editors become more sound-adept. 

Philip Perkins

[Marc Wielage]

So that that one device can capture the Picture,  Sound, and can create digital dailies and do video assist like playback on the set in any resolution you want including full Hi Def projection.

The S-two's are very delicate and expensive. From what post sup's are telling me, most shows are archiving their data each night (or every other day), then recycling the drives. I know for sure Red projects are doing that, because nobody wants to go out and buy 100 CF cards at $600 a pop.

Just because the new digital cameras can record sound doesn't mean they should. All the recent post projects I've worked are operating on the theory that the production sound is the "real" audio, and the camera sound is only a backup (or used as a work track for dailies).

--Marc W.

[Brian Ferguson]

The S-two's are very delicate and expensive. From what post sup's are telling me, most shows are archiving their data each night (or every other day), then recycling the drives. I know for sure Red projects are doing that, because nobody wants to go out and buy 100 CF cards at $600 a pop.

Just because the new digital cameras can record sound doesn't mean they should. All the recent post projects I've worked are operating on the theory that the production sound is the "real" audio, and the camera sound is only a backup (or used as a work track for dailies).

--Marc W.

Most of the shoots I know about such as Steven Soderbergh's, treat the RED just like film except they use a Lockit to provide TC to the camera. Smaller productions tend to use the camera more like HD and record onboard.

At Red all of the tech people I know suggest double system sound recording and feeding a reference track to the camera. Sound is available but I have never thought of this camera as a replacement for talented crew, especially audio and assistant cameramen, oh yes and a really good D.P.. It is a totally manual camera. The fact that audio came on later in development has always seemed to me that image quality is the paramount emphasis of the RED One. Something that RED is really good at.

The latest build of the firmware has some fixes that go along with the new audio board, some improvements that I will be mentioning soon on reduser.net, but I can't think of anyone at RED that would tell a major production to change the way they normally produce audio in a production. The fact that RED is improving and upgrading the audio board at no cost to it's customers is typical of RED's commitment to their customer base. If audio was a top priority from the outset there would have been physical controls on the camera etc. The audio is great when used correctly, but the menu systems don't allow easy control like an ENG camera. At least this is true with the current RED One. RED audio if tended to properly is excellent. But like any audio recorder if not tested and practiced with, is as good as the attention it is given. I understand it is impossible to pay attention to 2 recordings systems on a production. The reference track can certainly help speed up the dallies process enormously. The last project I worked on had a reference track sent wireless and it was fine for offline.

Most large productions have enough cards or drives to go a week or two before recycling them. Just so editorial has made sure there are no issues with cloning etc. The new 16 Gig cards are $550 and the original 8 Gig cards are $165. Sort of the equivalent of 1000 and 400 ft magazines. One thing that has come up more and more in favor of digital cinema is the increasing airport security and the possibility of film damage by x-rays. Just a fact of the world we live in. The advantage of tape-less recording is not having to buy expensive decks. The advantage of REDCODE is being able to record on CF cards or RED Drives and be untethered to large packs like the S-two's or Codex. No tape decks and no large RAID recorders with cables. The paradigm is much like current audio is recording with Mac Mini's and hard drives. Hand over a drive or a disk at the end of the day and the edit is on it's way.

I am wondering has this type of audio discussion been ongoing with Genesis, Viper, Sony 900 & 950 cameras? As far as double system and all digital cameras? Because this obviously is not a recent event, whereas RED is recent.

[RPSharman]

I think the price of the RED put it in the pro-sumer marketplace, unlike the other cameras you mentioned.  It made a quality picture available to people with limited resources, and often limited experience.  Many of these projects were dummied down for web broadcast or poorly authored DVD, and could just as well been shot on an old DVX100.  This lack of budget made single system audio desirable for the "filmaker", but it was poorly supported and executed by RED (sorry, Brian).  The cameras are complicated for camera people to use, and the tech (in most an AC and not a rep from RED) certainly does not want to be responsible for picture AND audio.  He works for the DP.  And I don't want my boom guy to be thinking about the feed the whole time.  He should be worried about getting me good sound.

The reality is that MOST shows using the Genesis or Viper systems are "professional" shoots with more experienced and larger crews.  The RED, because of its availability, finds itself on even the silliest of productions.  These productions often need the easiest possible equipment to use.

Robert

[Brian Ferguson]

The reality is that MOST shows using the Genesis or Viper systems are "professional" shoots with more experienced and larger crews.  The RED, because of its availability, finds itself on even the silliest of productions.  These productions often need the easiest possible equipment to use.

Robert

How do you handle double system sound with other cameras like the 900 and 950 that can record audio as well? Do you send a line to them because they are in your opinion pro cameras? You don't want to send a feed to a RED because it doesn't cost enough? I was just asking if you do send them a line or don't. I don't really care if people use the audio on the RED it is a choice that is up to the filmmaker.

Silly shows like Jumper, Knowing, Leverage, The Informant, Game, Che, Angels and Demons (effects).

I was walking out of a RED test shoot towards the garage with Emmanuel Lubezki "Chivo", and he looked at me and said "I love, love, this camera!". He liked it so much he used it part time on Terrance Malick's film "Tree of Life".

I was in the DGA theatre lobby when looking at a RED body Steven Soderbergh said "That's what we have been waiting for, a digital 35 mm camera I can hand hold - I'm all in." He has used it ever since on all of his films even shooting anamorphic on RED.

God Love Ya Robert! You need to get out more...

Brian Ferguson

[Arnold F.]

"I can't think of anyone at RED that would tell a major production to change the way they normally produce audio in a production."

Since the other half of film-making (sound) is none of their business it's a relief to know they stay quiet about it.  It would not be appropriate for Sound Devices to try to tell productions what camera to use or for a company who makes C-stands to say what brand of make-up the MUA should use.

In my mind, what sets other video/digital cameras apart from the RED is that they are generally cheaper to get hold of and productions obviously don't create all the "RED production" hype with them.  And I NEVER fail to tell productions that NO camera is capable of recording quality sound, although I understand that the reality is that sound recorded to camera frequently finds it's way into the final product.

[Philip Perkins]

How do you handle double system sound with other cameras like the 900 and 950 that can record audio as well? Do you send a line to them because they are in your opinion pro cameras? You don't want to send a feed to a RED because it doesn't cost enough? I was just asking if you do send them a line or don't. I don't really care if people use the audio on the RED it is a choice that is up to the filmmaker.

Silly shows like Jumper, Knowing, Leverage, The Informant, Game, Che, Angels and Demons (effects).

I was walking out of a RED test shoot towards the garage with Emmanuel Lubezki "Chivo", and he looked at me and said "I love, love, this camera!". He liked it so much he used it part time on Terrance Malick's film "Tree of Life".

I was in the DGA theatre lobby when looking at a RED body Steven Soderbergh said "That's what we have been waiting for, a digital 35 mm camera I can hand hold - I'm all in." He has used it ever since on all of his films even shooting anamorphic on RED.

God Love Ya Robert! You need to get out more...

Brian Ferguson

Hey Brian--I wish I did "get out" more but I do what I can!  And we do do double system with F900s and Varicams etc and we also send audio to the camera.  Are those cameras a more pro-style audio recorder than a Red?  Yes!  Why?  Let's rehearse the criticisms again:  1: weenie, non-standard connectors in an awkward position on the camera body  2: no meters visible from the outside the VF.  3: no level controls other than in menus, and on older builds, no level control for line level at all.  4: various 48v Phantom mic power issues for those wishing to run mics directly to the camera.  5: camera noise, higher than I've experienced with other pro cameras.  6: scary issues with the audio files--perhaps now resolved depending on how updated the camera in use is.  7: no place to velcro a TC gen or RX without covering up some connectors.  8: unstable TC, on a connector not found at all in the video world. 9: audio return on a non-standard connector, with no easy access to channel assignment and level.  All these issues are far better dealt with in the Sonysonic cams, hence sound people are more comfortable hooking up to an individual camera unit they may not have ever seen before.  Red went its own way in the implementation of audio recording on their camera, stonewalled about the problems for quite a long time, and has finally begun to make some fixes.  For a soundie working alone on a video shoot, the use of the Red means many more phone calls to the producer, DP, rental house, editor etc than any of the others.  In truth, I don't mind doing this and think the Red makes very nice pictures.  The sound I've heard from it as fine, no better than an F900 etc but no worse, and that's ok.  I like new challenges and working w/ new tools and methods, but, please, let's acknowledge that Red has never gotten the audio section of their camera even up to prosumer standards of usability, let alone that of the Sony and Panasonic HD cams.  I think we can assume that Mr. Soderburgh is doing double system audio, and not recording any audio he cares about to his Reds?

Philip Perkins

[studiomprd]

this discussion is becoming a bit philosophical!

" NO camera is capable of recording quality sound, "  is not quite factual.  If fed hi-quality digital mixes, there are several camcorders that can record the digital streams.

To answer Brian's question,  yes, we record audio to the high-end digital camera systems, though often the recorder is external to the camera part of the system.  Ine of the original sound-people issues remains today: who is controlling, or doing the recording, especially if the sound crew is responsible for the recordings, when the recordings are being made by the camera crew!

Where "RED" seems to be getting some heat (deserved, or not!) is because it was conceived and created by newcomers, and targeted (particularly by its over-hyped price point) toward the semi-pro market. OK, what is Pro, and what is semi-Pro??  well let's say it is the difference between traditional, high quality motion picture production with experienced crews and reasonable budgets.  I know, that is way too subjective, but I suspect most of us know what I mean, and the ones that want to argue about it are the ones who are most definitely semi-Pro!!  

Si RED is a noticibly lower cost tool for creating high quality images, and does have the capability to "record" 24 bit 48kHz audio files (even if it remains less capable of creating those files itself compared to other professional sound options).

There have always been a lot of "Semi-Pro's" (and even rank amateurs!) making motion pictures on top equipment;  how many of us have paid some of our dues working on those projects that got a "free" camera package from Panavision, and shot on 35mm film, short ends??

when folks without experience, or with only limited, and usually non-professional experience, get their paws on quality equipment at low prices, and have limited resources to make their movie, they expect the equipment itself to deliver more than it can without the talented professionals who are behind almost all of the successful motion pictures.  while this all does not apply to using RED, some of the things that happen on these projects include: shooting way, way too much handheld, multiple camcorders, using auto-focus, auto aperture, auto everything, using on camera mic's, not reading the equipment manuals, not learning and understanding their tools thoroughly, not lighting (and especially: not lighting the actors!), not composing shots, not rehearsing, not getting permits, not having insurance, not having and using stand-ins, not having adequate crew, not paying the crew, not feeding the crew on time, not working reasonable hours ("who needs sleep?" we are making my movie!),... you get the idea!)

Since the RED, unlike than the other, more expensive Digital Camera options, caters to this market-place, and since we sound professionals keep hearing from these "Semi-Pro" folks using it, and they think that since it can record audio, that's where the audio will have to be recorded and it will be faster and cheaper that way (their two top priorities!)... well, that is why we are both curious and critical.

Remember: it is not about the arrows, it is about the archer!

[RPSharman]

Brian,

I want to be clear that the RED camera is a beautiful piece of engineering and makes beautiful pictures and I trust it records great sound, especially with its recent upgrades.  The only problem I have is that because of its affordability, it has made it into the hands of the incompetent as well as the experienced.  This is NOT the fault of the RED company.  It's great to open the doors of opportunity.  My objection is that the camera is a little complicated for the average user, and when you combine lack of experience and a smaller crew, it makes it even harder to get the quality out of the camera that it's capable of.

I would like it to be a little easier to run tone from my machine, and be able to see meters and adjust the input level without having to go through menu options to be able to do both.  The F900, for example, allows me to plug in and select mic/line and adjust levels and see the meters, all without needing to bother the camera folks.  I hope to get a refresher course in a couple of weeks when I do another segment of "Locker 13".  Hope to see you there.

Robert

[Brian Ferguson]

Hey Brian--I wish I did "get out" more but I do what I can!  And we do do double system with F900s and Varicams etc and we also send audio to the camera.  Are those cameras a more pro-style audio recorder than a Red?  Yes!  Why?  Let's rehearse the criticisms again:  1: weenie, non-standard connectors in an awkward position on the camera body  2: no meters visible from the outside the VF.  3: no level controls other than in menus, and on older builds, no level control for line level at all.  4: various 48v Phantom mic power issues for those wishing to run mics directly to the camera.  5: camera noise, higher than I've experienced with other pro cameras.  6: scary issues with the audio files--perhaps now resolved depending on how updated the camera in use is.  7: no place to velcro a TC gen or RX without covering up some connectors.  8: unstable TC, on a connector not found at all in the video world. 9: audio return on a non-standard connector, with no easy access to channel assignment and level.  All these issues are far better dealt with in the Sonysonic cams, hence sound people are more comfortable hooking up to an individual camera unit they may not have ever seen before.  Red went its own way in the implementation of audio recording on their camera, stonewalled about the problems for quite a long time, and has finally begun to make some fixes.  For a soundie working alone on a video shoot, the use of the Red means many more phone calls to the producer, DP, rental house, editor etc than any of the others.  In truth, I don't mind doing this and think the Red makes very nice pictures.  The sound I've heard from it as fine, no better than an F900 etc but no worse, and that's ok.  I like new challenges and working w/ new tools and methods, but, please, let's acknowledge that Red has never gotten the audio section of their camera even up to prosumer standards of usability, let alone that of the Sony and Panasonic HD cams.  I think we can assume that Mr. Soderburgh is doing double system audio, and not recording any audio he cares about to his Reds?

Philip Perkins

You are correct on all of your points Phiip, RED's audio was an after thought it only came on about 5 months after shipping. We are trying to make it better within the architecure we started with. Jim Jannard himself says (paraphrased) "When we started we didn't know what we are doing. We know more now, when we know what we are doing - look out!" We have a new generation coming out - we can be better.

You are right about Soderburg using dual system. Saying that the RED is lacking in the audio department and has flaws is fine with me, and I understand the complaints. I was asking what normally happens on your shoots with other video cameras. I have produced and shot a number of commercials so I know what happens on mine. Thankfully there was some helpful input on that score.

But generalizing and saying the camera isn't a professional tool and is not used with large crews kind of made me want to set the record straight.

Robert Sharpman and I have worked together, so I was tongue in cheek kidding him, looks like we will be working again in a couple of weeks. The menus are more simple than they seem but could still piss off an audio guy.

I hope I can take the comments here and deliver them to RED development when I get the chance. Your comments could help the next generations of the camera improve in the audio I/O. I am a freelance consultant been there since the beginning I still shoot and own a RED, #12. I just saw that 'who are you" thread I will post a bio there so you know me a little.

[Brian Ferguson]

Revisited Philip's comments, and  the only exceptions I have are (7.) depending on the owner... and the camera's accessories Red has been known as a camera with expandability and extra surfaces to attach extras. With rods or top plates etc. Never had a problem putting a Lockit for example and that includes a 8 camera shoot with ESPN. Most owners should have plenty of places to stick stuff. That was a way overboard point that RED made in early renders with side handles etc. Even third party 15 mm accessories have plenty of mounting points.

And (8.) Not found at all in the video world? It is the same connector that  Sound Devices uses in their implement of bi-directional TC on all of their recorders (5 Pin Lemo) and the same as a Lockit box, and their master clock, and also on an Ambient Smart Slate. If it is not stable there is something wrong with the camera. The camera is true progressive not PsF. Once again on a 8 camera 3D Shoot with ESPN the engineers had no problem getting the correct gear from Bexel.

\ 7: no place to velcro a TC gen or RX without covering up some connectors.  8: unstable TC, on a connector not found at all in the video world.

Philip Perkins

[Brian Ferguson]

I only have one device a Tascam HD-P2 that uses xlr TC, I use that for Podcasts . I think most Sony and Panasonic cameras have separate BNC TC in and outs

[Philip Perkins]

I only have one device a Tascam HD-P2 that uses xlr TC, I use that for Podcasts . I think most Sony and Panasonic cameras have separate BNC TC in and outs

That was my point about the Red TC connector.  The Lemo 5 pin was a film-world thing--I already had those from the Nagra TC days.  But I got a lot of complaints from video rental houses and video engineers who were unfamiliar with them, and they are pretty hard to make yourself.  The Red is a video camera, so BNCs for TC would have been a better choice.  The ACs I've worked with on Red shoots were very unenthusiastic about hanging anything from rods or etc, so we ended up velcroing over the part of the body where the HDMI connector is since they weren't using it.  They were used to having the TC box solidly attached to the body itself (as we do w/ Sony and Panasonic), not in their way when they wanted to change out accessories like rods.  If you have some suggestions for mounting something as heavy as an SBT and can make some illustrations, please post them here,

they would help me a lot.  I am secretly rooting for the Red to get its audio deal as together as its picture recording--I like the whole jam-on-roll concept, the solid state media + software thing, the upgradeability and dig the fact that a happening video camera is being made in the USA again.  Just please make it so that all the normal bread and butter jobs that the Red owners NEED to do while their big feature script is in turnaround are more possible w/less trouble for us workers.

Philip Perkins