Melkool Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Hi everyone, my first post here. I am doing location sound next month for a short. Action takes place in a moving car. Besides de 4 lavs I will have on the characters, I am thinking of planting also some mics in the car. Has anyone done this, with Oktava mk-012 MINI's? Looking for some feedback, before I go ahead and buy them. Thank you in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 IME, cardioids need very careful placement in a car. They tend to pick up too much window reflection, and even the expensive ones do add a strange color to that reflexion. Hypers are better. I've found Oktavas quite dark in comparison, the (more expensive) usual suspects Sennheiser, Schoeps, Neumann are cleaner. But I guess a bit of EQ can get you a long way, and probably most of the sound will come from the lavs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 In cars where budget is an issue, I tend to use lavs, but not on the bodies of the actors but rather on the visors or seats. Plenty of places to hide them. Clothing rustle is a major issue with lavs on bodies in cars. But this is if the car is still. I use Dpa lavs exclusively and they sound good enough. If the car will be moving though, I would try to get some other type of mic to mount. Oktavas are better than nothing. But if you have the money to buy that, why not rent two or three schoeps cmc641 with swivel? Won't get any more flexible and better sounding. A ccm41 is good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) Recently I have found the aforementioned Schoeps CMK641 combo harder and harder to use. If you add even the B5D it's impossible to hide them. Unfortunately, because they can sound great in cars. But nowadays I am faced with at least two cameras in and outside cars, covering pretty much the entire interior. So I have returned more and more to a DPA lav on a tx all hidden in the visor, with the lav poking out just as much as possible. Not great sounding, but that's how it is. In addition to body mics this works ok. Following the thread here I have ordered two DPA4098, but haven't received them yet. i think with car work it's more important than with most other situations to have several options available as there are often unexpected situations. Like recently, when we were shooting with an Alexa on a trailer. I had everything nicely rigged (Schoeps), when about 5 minutes before departure, they added a Blackmagic inside the car, showing basically the entire front half of the car. So I had to re-rig everything, resorting to the lav option. Of course I got the "why didn't you do this before?" I explained, what they should know, that they added a second camera at the last moment despite their repeated claims to the contrary and that this changed everything from me. Anyway, just be prepared. Edited November 21, 2015 by Constantin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 +1 Cars are either very easy and satisfying or plain hell. I did some still car shots on a green screen. I was inside the car practically booming all of the dialog. Worked pretty well except for me being a bit too long for the cars so my body was pretty upset. You could also end up sitting in the back between camera operator and the director while the camera is moving. In a VW beetle convertible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 I've used two hyper (Sound Room) Oktava 012s in a pick-up truck.. no insert trailer, windows were closed.. as I recall, a late model Dodge Ram 4x4 club cab (not a clunker). I mounted the mics on the center console via Nite-Ize flex gear ties which acted as shock mounts, pointing up/back.. at one point the vehicle stops, passenger exits and converses through the open door. decent results on both counts. Director and Cam op were in the backseat, I was 'strapped' in the bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganC Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 On the forum topic House of Cards Season 3 they used Sanken Cub boundary mics for the car interiors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 I've found it's best to go from underneath if the windows are open. Sanken Cubs [although they don't sound "great"] work well on top if windows are closed. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Melkol, the oktava is very susceptible to vibration and very low freq sound. I would not use it in a car unless it is the only mic I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) Oktava MK 012 with mini preamps are my go to mics for car interiors. IMO they always sound better than a planted lav (even DPAs). I don't like when dialogue in a car scene sounds like recorded in a garbage can. Whenever possible I use the cardioid capsules because they allow for more head movement and sound richer and fuller compared to the hypers, resulting in a very nice studio-like sound. Depending on camera angle I place them either behind or on top of the steering wheel (for the driver) or on the visor pointing down. For old cars or vans etc there are other, sometimes better options regarding placement. My biggest worry is always which way the talent might turn their head while speaking, this is something that you need to find out during rehearsal and then adjust mic positions accordingly, or even use more than one mic per talent if they're big head turners. EDIT: Rado, I have never had any trouble with low frequency rumble in cars. However using a lo cut on the recorder or wireless is a must for these mics though. Edited November 21, 2015 by Christian Spaeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Reply Prize So Far: have at least a few options ready to go. Multi-cam is not audio friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Same here, I didn't have trouble with low frequencies but surely had a HP filter engaged. Low-end (and air turbulence) are always an issue with the 012. I don't exactly recall but may have used the regular cardioid caps, since I had a three-capsule matched set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarcanon Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Reply Prize So Far: have at least a few options ready to go. No kidding about having options. Even a single camera can be a nightmare, if you're not prepared for all possibilities, remote or otherwise. I just did an ENG-style shoot at the LA Auto Show. An exec from a German car manufacturer was going to do a demo of the new electronics and smart phone integration in a new model. I wired him up with a COS-11D and planted a DPA 4098, each on a Lectro UM400a Tx. Checked levels and listened for RFI for a good long time in advance, as there were several other crews in the vicinity. Coast was clear. He gets in the car and starts his demo, and all of a sudden RFI is spraying all over the place. Tout suite, I swapped out his radio mike for a wired TR-50, and even that started getting hard and frequent hits. I then quickly pulled out a wired shotgun on a pistol grip. Fortunately, it was a tight shot through an open window, so it worked out in the end. But only just. I spent the next hour beating myself up for not anticipating that an _electronics demo_ would queer the pitch. Doh! That was a lesson I won't soon forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) EDIT: Rado, I have never had any trouble with low frequency rumble in cars. However using a lo cut on the recorder or wireless is a must for these mics though. Don't get me wrong I love the Oktavas. I still have the first set that Michael Jolly ever moded. I have not used them in years but will never sale them. I just remember ,when I used them as my main boom mic in a rycote, how sensitive they were to vibration and low freqs. Edited November 21, 2015 by RadoStefanov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigF Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Got an Oktava to test, put it in the anechoic chamber, the POS had better frequency response off-axis than it did on axis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 The Oktava MK012 mics vary widely from unit to unit. FWIW, under certain conditions the Oktava cardioid capsule sounds more like a Schoeps with an MK41 capsule than does the Oktava hyper-cardioid capsule. I find that when deployed in real world situations, the difference between an Oktava and a Schoeps reveals why the Schoeps is worth the cost difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Wynne Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 I have two Oktva mk102 sitting around that I haven't used in a very long time. This thread has got me interested in dusting them out and trying them out as plants sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) The quality control of Tula oktava factory was not very good but still should be good sounding. You maybe have the fake Chinese knock offs. Original Oktava produced in Russia Oktava from China, so-called "new revised series".These products are not related in any wayto the genuine Oktava products. supplied with manual and individual response curves supplied without any documents has -10 dB pad and original metal holder all original microphones manufactured after 01.01. 05are labelled "Октава МК-012" has no -10 dB pad, supplied with plastic holder labeled "Oktava МC012" every microphone has its own serial number white screws has no individual number black screws bonding area has a dimple for effective contact silver-sputtered no contact dimple not sputtered copper, no corrosion-protection silver-sputtered contact-pin unprotected against oxidation pin _ _ Got an Oktava to test, put it in the anechoic chamber, the POS had better frequency response off-axis than it did on axis. Edited November 22, 2015 by RadoStefanov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Unfortunately, the photos only tell part of the story, as not all generations of the 012 had the same markings and construction details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 in general they have to be very close to each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 There are several different iterations -- construction-wise and marking-wise -- with both the Russian-made and Chinese-knock-off Oktavas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gilchrist Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 On the forum topic House of Cards Season 3 they used Sanken Cub boundary mics for the car interiors. And most of the car shots are greenscreen on a special stage (the cooler) with the windshield removed and often the door on the camera side is removed as well. Chris Kellett posted a great pic linked here of the setup in that thread. The one "driving" setup I did on a season 2 second unit took a couple of hours start to finish and on an insert trailer it would likely have taken 8+ hours. Best regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganC Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 And most of the car shots are greenscreen on a special stage (the cooler) with the windshield removed and often the door on the camera side is removed as well. Chris Kellett posted a great pic linked here of the setup in that thread. The one "driving" setup I did on a season 2 second unit took a couple of hours start to finish and on an insert trailer it would likely have taken 8+ hours. Best regards, Jim So would you recommend using the cub microphones only when on a stage/studio? If so what would you use for trailer use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gilchrist Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) So would you recommend using the cub microphones only when on a stage/studio? If so what would you use for trailer use? I personally wouldn't recommend the CUBs unless used as intended. They are boundary layer mics and work best on a hard surface (the boundary). We used them on the scene we did that day to save time for post. The big LED panels used to light and make refections in the car and car windows are loud but the post folks have dealing with it down pat. I would recommend what's right for the situation at hand. I often use Schoeps MK4 or 41 capsules on collette cables and the MK6 in cardioid mode works in some situations, but they're no longer available new. Lavs on the visors work well sometimes, and I've found that Trams are really well suited for this application. CUBs work for some setups. The little DPA goosenecks can work great too. All told, the HOC driving shot method has ruined me as far as working on any towed car shot goes. So quick and easy and sounds great when handled correctly. Just like hiding lavs on talent no one method works for every situation and the same solution might work great before lunch and not at all after. Best regards, Jim Edited November 22, 2015 by Jim Gilchrist Can't spell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganC Posted November 23, 2015 Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 I personally wouldn't recommend the CUBs unless used as intended. They are boundary layer mics and work best on a hard surface (the boundary). We used them on the scene we did that day to save time for post. The big LED panels used to light and make refections in the car and car windows are loud but the post folks have dealing with it down pat. I would recommend what's right for the situation at hand. I often use Schoeps MK4 or 41 capsules on collette cables and the MK6 in cardioid mode works in some situations, but they're no longer available new. Lavs on the visors work well sometimes, and I've found that Trams are really well suited for this application. CUBs work for some setups. The little DPA goosenecks can work great too. All told, the HOC driving shot method has ruined me as far as working on any towed car shot goes. So quick and easy and sounds great when handled correctly. Just like hiding lavs on talent no one method works for every situation and the same solution might work great before lunch and not at all after. Best regards, Jim Excellet thoughts Jim. This cleared up my questions. I appreciate you taking the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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