Jump to content

Track Naming on 744T


beefbuns

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

I'm just interested to see what method most people use as track/take naming conventions. 

The reason being, on the last feature I worked on, the dop was adamant on using phonetics from "A-Z" rather than the conventional "slate" method. Bit annoying as when they got to Z, they started from A.1, B.2 etc. And pick-up scenes were another nightmare.

I normally set my track names as "sce_1_T01,sce_1_T02......" and obviously change the scene number when we shoot a new scene. Any cheap way to use a keyboard with the 744T to speed up my writing. The CL-1 is way overpriced for what is it.

What track naming method do you use? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only way to get a keybd into a 744/702 is via CL1.  Maybe see if you can find a used one--they aren't needed for 788s and don't work on the 6xx series at all, so former 744 owners might have one to sell.  Once you have the CL1 the one keybd that always seems to work  is the old "rollup" squishy key types (USB).  Others may work, but years ago when I was looking for a keybd for my 744s the rollup "Indestructible" type was the only one I found that worked consistently.

When you say "track names" you seem to actually be talking about "scene names"--"track names" in 744-world refer to the labelling of the individual 4 recording channels in the metadata, and these stay as you set them until you change them (boom, lav 1, character name, mix, etc).  For scene names that become filenames we are limited to what can be done in the old "8 dot 3" format.  We can't put "." in a filename unless it is followed by the filetype, ie "xxxx.wav".  You can save characters by eliminating the "sce" from the name--everyone knows that's what is being named here, and the availability of the extra character slots may give you the flexibility you need.   It's often been a good idea to have a little meeting ahead of time about what will work as a filename and what won't, at least for sound.  If the production still wants to use their own method and it is not possible to get a good close version of their scene names entered as 744 filenames, then you may have to revert to the old "segment number" method, where you assign a unique identifier, usually an ever-ascending series of numbers, to each scene/take, and then make a separate log that correlates the two naming sequences.  If you have time you can enter the slate name in the notes field metadata on the 744, the keyboard and some keyboard shortcuts make this easier.  But there are real limitations re what's possible as a filename on the 744 and how easy it is to enter and correct that data, later machines have made this much easier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not the DoP's job to bother about filenames. I've never even met one who would care at all. Having said that, if everyone is in board then by alle means you should adopt that system, too, as far as possible. However I would make sure that the slate calls the same letter/numbers, too. 

I was on a job once where they wanted me to have exactly the same filenames as the camera. Including the card counter. So my filenames were something like this: A003-B-C001, or something similar, I can't remember the exact format. They also wanted the camera to roll on wildtracks and I had to roll when they shot plates or even colour bars. Totally stupid system, and I tried to talk them out of it, but they wouldn't budge, so I played along. It's their show

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some inexperienced editors and post-supes get very panicky about data management, and will sometimes dig their heels in about slate/scene/filenaming regardless of what's actually possible with the gear in use, the time avail to think about this on set and the possibility that a complex and non-intuitive system will result in many errors that are time consuming and soul-destroyingly laborious to find and fix.  This is an area, like genny placement, HVAC and exterior-access doors to an interior set where your diplomatic skills need to be in full flower.  It helps a whole lot to get the ACs, scripty and the DIT on board with your suggestions--speak with one voice etc.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is idiotic. File names between sound and picture have always been different. The post staff needs to pull their heads out of their asses. To me, this is what an assistant editor is for: to organize all the files, check all the metadata, arrange the bins, and sync up the audio tracks with the picture. It's ludicrous and stupid to demand that the file names are identical, particularly when Red camera files look like A005_C024_0101IQ.RDC. Who the hell cares if the sound file is named ABC123 or 101A-1 or whatever? 

To me, I generally delete the prefixes so that you just get scene name and take name in the sound file. In my many conversations with assistant editors and editors, that's what they generally work with, and they make sure the metadata is the same as the file name (for systems that can name the file as "scene-take"). I think the metadata is important, and the file date & time are important, but the file name is superfluous and just doesn't matter.

Somebody on the post staff is way too green and ignorant. In the real world, you don't have to worry about this stuff. They should worry about the timecode and sync being right, and worry about all the files being there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if you used Zaxcom? Would they make you hire a different machine that would allow you to name the file as the scene? That's crazy.

Good advice here above... Don't waste characters... If they're using the American slate system, then it's scene number with a letter at the end for each camera angle change. It is common in the UK on both American projects and 2nd units to adopt the American slate system, so get used to it if you expect to work on bigger projects. Although, they are doing it incorrectly in your case. After Z it should go to AA, then AB, etc. There is a menu selection in the 744T to increment scenes with letters so you can use the stop/FF short cut to increment to the next letter. Your file/scene should be 23AT01, for example, for scene 23 second setup first take. This is the default file naming for 744T.

When you're back on slate number UK system, just change to numerical increment mode. Again, just use 53T01 for the 53rd slate, etc. Don't waste characters or confuse NLE systems with extra underscores "sce_23_T01" or other such things.

If you need help, give me a call 07432 326082. I'm just down the M4!

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Philip, my mistake, I did mean scene names, not track names. 

And Marc you are spot on, RED camera naming files are ridiculous. 

efksound, I might take you up on that offer, unless I upgrade my system to a 788T. I'll see how my budget is in the new yr!

And thanks for your personal number Robert.

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll definitely streamline my scene naming conventions from now on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Around here there is starting to be some movement towards making less idiotically complex and illogical camera-clip numbers: the Sony F55 etc can talk to an iPad etc that allows the AC to enter whatever name they want for the clip.  For those of you who have experienced how dreadfully latent the menu system is on those cameras, entering settings via the iPad route is instantaneous and doesn't require the eyepiece monitor to be in a menu mode--the DP can keep watching the scene.  I'm waiting to see if this catches on--

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Joe Riggs said:

I do, 101A-1 please, files should be named by scene and take, period. This is helpful from the start all the way through to the post sound process. 

Yet hundreds, more likely even thousands, of major motion pictures have taken sequentially numbered files from Zaxcom Deva recorders with great success and nary a whimper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Yet hundreds, more likely even thousands, of major motion pictures have taken sequentially numbered files from Zaxcom Deva recorders with great success and nary a whimper.

It can work but at the very least it is an inconvenience and it would take longer/more money for them to complete their job.  If they need to replace a line or word, it's much easier for them to find the corresponding takes when they are labeled as "101A-1" vs  "ASD1001" or just "Take04", as examples of sequentially numbered file names I've received in the past.    

 

Quote

If we are doing slated double system stuff then yes, I will the scene number as the file name. I've even got thank you's for editors  further down post production blvd.

Another Thank you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Simple question: are the camera (image files) named with Scene and Take from the script supervisor? Is Scene and Take identification available in some part of the camera's file metadata? Just curious how this all works (asking the question from the personal persepctive of having done hundreds and hundreds of sound rolls with the file names being a sequential number and the Scene and Take being in the metadata).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Well, the scene and take are on the report!!!  It's digital...on a screen right in front of them...

  If you had ....dy46T01   meaning shoot day 46, track 1,   and the editor looked at the Digital Sound report right in front of them, on their computer, for Day 46...  how hard is it to see that that was Scene 101 take 1???    or  dy46T64...  sc. 112B take 4.  Take (or file) 64 on the report says that was 112B take 4.  Please tell me they are smarter than this...

  This in the field is much easier and safer for US than hearing a scene number from the script supervisor, getting it into the machine, maybe in a rush, then rolling only to hear it has been changed by the script supervisor, going back in, changing it on the fly, and then changing the data on your Digital report.... What a pain in the ass... If a Editor can't simply cross reference the few times they need to to find a take from the report, they are in trouble.... 

  I name a scene or day once..... then let the takes rip till the end of the day.... If I do have to correct something, it's only on the report....easy ...safe...and all takes are recorded just like on tape....one after another... 

I have done this for years.... never a problem or even a question...  Is it easier for EDIT to SEE the actual scene and take..?  Maybe... but it is outweighed by the pitfalls during production, many times under the gun. It's the correction I hate doing.... especially when your cooking along... it can pile up and create some stress... I have enough of that... I get the editors have to move quickly as well, but they are in an edit suite, not on set.... let them take a moment and cross reference it... key word...moment.

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Usually on jobs of the sort described above one can count on there being smart asst. editors who will arrange everything for the Big E editor so that the scene #s etc aren't an issue anymore.  How files named as other than scene/take get conformed is a problem that is solved every day by people with good workflow sense and training.  I find that on smaller productions it becomes important that what's on the slate be reflected in the file name for that shot, since the post dept. may only be one harassed overworked person with Big Deadlines.  But on those productions I find I can persuade everyone to name the takes my way (a way that works for my equipment and methods) and there is usually time to enter the changes (because we keep them simple).  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/24/2015 at 8:57 AM, Joe Riggs said:

I do, 101A-1 please, files should be named by scene and take, period. This is helpful from the start all the way through to the post sound process. 

 

Yeah, I agree 100% with that. But in truth, as long as the time/date stamp is correct in the folder, the post people can always find the take. What does help is when it says 101A WILD or 101W or something like that, so when there's a wild track that doesn't necessarily correspond to picture, the assistant or dailies person can make sure it gets set aside and put in the right bin. Otherwise, there may come a time when 4-5 months later they're struggling to try to fix a scene where a wild track exists, but they're too stupid to go back and check the notes.

6 hours ago, afewmoreyears said:

 

Well, the scene and take are on the report!!!  It's digital...on a screen right in front of them...

  If you had ....dy46T01   meaning shoot day 46, track 1,   and the editor looked at the Digital Sound report right in front of them, on their computer, for Day 46...  how hard is it to see that that was Scene 101 take 1???    or  dy46T64...  sc. 112B take 4.  Take (or file) 64 on the report says that was 112B take 4.  Please tell me they are smarter than this...

I don't think it's necessary to make the shoot date part of the file name. If you did, it would wind up making the file names needlessly long and convoluted.I have no problem (and in fact encourage) the assistant to organize all the files by shoot date folders, which is perfectly clear and makes absolute sense. If you know a given scene was shot on Friday, December 18th, right before lunch, you could easily zero in on that folder and check out everything that's there right in the operating system. Maybe it didn't get to the log, maybe it was misslated, maybe the sound mixer kept rolling and wasn't aware that the crew was doing an additional take that got tied to the earlier take. If they can zero in on it based on the time of day stamp and the folder, that totally solves the problem.


BTW, anybody who wants to learn more about this, read Scott Arundale's book Modern Post: Workflows and Techniques for Digital Filmmakers, which goes into great detail about things like file names, setups for production vs. editors, and why and how sound and picture elements are organized for post. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Marc,

"I don't think it's necessary to make the shoot date part of the file name."

 

  Me either.... Its just an example.... There are many ways to name it... The point is.... It can be anything you like, or you work out ahead of time... just not necessarily the scene and take number... As long as you name it once and let the files count up... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Usually the shoot date is in the file metadata anyway, so sc+take are the best bets.  But I worked an a few commercials this year with very slate/TC/notes-averse directors who made it clear dealing with any of that stuff was considered a gross infringement on their prerogatives, flow, vibe or whatever, so we definitely did as Mr. AFMY said in those cases, notated as best we could, tried to stay on the same page with the harassed and ignored scripty and let the posties clean up the mess, with our apologies.   Shit flows downhill, as they say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm coming for a very indie perspective, where there's usually no assistant editor and sound reports are a luxury, I've worked on more projects without reports, then with them.

Example, I worked on a project without sound reports but the files were named by scene and take, so when it came time for post sound to take over, they could simply go by the file names if they needed to replace a line or word with another take. If in that case, the mixer went by some sequential naming convention, the post sound job would be infinitely more cumbersome and most likely would have cost more money.

If you are starting at and only labeling T01 every new shooting day, I would welcome the "dy46" in a filename, anything to help differentiate the files to give it a unique name.  By only organizing by day on the harddrive level, one could wind up with a "T01" for every shooting day, I don't want 24 files named "T01", that could cause a ton of confusion, such as if that were done in the example above.

If you're generating sound reports, that's a whole different story and I could see how file names could be less critical, however, I still prefer naming to be scene and take.  

Question, if you have one sound mixer who is doing double duty and also booming, does he have time to do reports as well?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The answer to your last question is the venerable "it depends", like on just how crazy the situation is.  It's always possible to scribble some notes on a piece of tape on the top of the bag rig or in a small notebook and then make some kind of report, WaveAgent or just a text file later.   Even if you don't get everything this will still be a help.  I like to do this, if possible, while the shoot is still fresh in my mind.  Another help for when things are really going nuts is to "talk to the recorder", like on your boom mic or a slate mic and just dictate what's going on and any details you can (this used to be common practice in film docs recorded on reel machines, no metadata or TC etc as a guide).  It is my belief that the "secretarial" aspects of location sound are as important as any other facet of the work, since post production can't use what they can't find (and identify).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...