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Rycote Kit 1 and 8060 observation UPDATE


chrisyking

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UPDATE:

Just wanted to set the record straight on this one. I swapped out my WS-1 for the non ZLM one, so the lyres are now stiffer and it now works fine. I now think that the funny ringing might have been some weird combination of my boom pole, the lyres and the basket all being in sympathetic resonance.

I would like to say that the 8060 WS-1 combo is really fantastic. The basket is just a great size, and the mic is basically just like a 416 but nice and short and with a better wider sweet spot. I tested the WS-1 fur in high wind the other day and it works great. I'm very happy. I would say however that I wouldn't but the ZLM version. It's unnecessary as you can fit a short XLR in a normal kit just fine. Con box is not worth the money.

Cheers

Chris

 

 

 

'So I received my Rycote kit 1 MZL basket for my new 8060 and just thought I'd make an observation.

I know this has been mentioned before but just wanted an opinion.

So, with the basket removed, there is almost no handling noise.

With the basket on, there is an awful amount of low frequency handling noise.

If you flick the basket, and watch carefully you can see it ringing like a bell. This is clearly amplifying the handling noise.

All this indicates that the lyres work well, but the basket is the problem.......

I imagine this goes away once you add the fur, but I just wondered if anyone had a trick for dampening the basket a little?

What I'm going to try tomorrow is to buy one of those stick on car deadening panels and cut a thin strip off it, then stick it inside in a kind of spiral running inside the basket.

I'll let you know how it goes obvs.... maybe this could be something which Rycote could 'build in' in future versions.... 

PS. I know you can remove the handling noise with LF cuts, and that if I were any good as a sound recordist, I wouldn't have handling noise etc. blah blah.... etc etc...

UPDATE: I tried the fur makes almost no difference, so damping the basket won't work it seems...'

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36 minutes ago, Constantin said:

No, this is not normal behaviour for a Rycote. Maybe it's defective?

It should not - but I have made the same observation. Wanted to use a CMIT in a Rycote but no chance. MKH60 works ok. Which is strange given the fact that the low cut on a CMIT is steeper than the MKH60.

Even Chris from Rycote could not explain why so ... 

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I just find it odd that without the basket there is almost no handling noise, but with the basket on I would go as far as to describe it as terrible....

Why is the basket adding handling noise? If you hold the basket it helps, but not totally. Maybe adding the basket stiffens the rubber 'seal' that the lyre system sits on.....

 

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So far only had LF issues with baskets that weren't fully tightened, or with loose end caps. So kaybe a thin strip of rubber or whatever, placed in the "rail" the basket slips onto, helps.

Oh, we did have an issue with a Connbox cable that touched the back cap. Moved the whole lyre/mic/connector assembly forward, problem solved.

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18 minutes ago, Matthias Richter said:

I think the basket acts as a resonance corpus. It reacts in a certain (low) freq and amplifies it. 

Exactly the suspension is fine, but the basket ruins anything the suspension does. Annoying as it's a lovely size. 

PS I've checked the cable, it happens even with the back cap off.

Maybe i'll look at a pianissimo. It seem a bit wide though.

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I tried a piano the other day, which has miles better handling noise, but even the pianissimo is huge with the fur on. Rycote need to get the WS1 sorted in this respect.... the other option is a regular softie with additional fur placed over the mount which actually works quite well in normal windy conditions.... wouldn't want to take that up a mountain though. The WS-1 is a great size though, and not too heavy.... think there is a gap in the market here if they can get the handling noise down..... maybe i can add an isolator....

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O.K. so I worked out what is happening here. This may be of value to Rycote or anyone using Rycote baskets.

If you look at the bottom basket photo there is an internal ridge which runs along the length of the groove.

This ridge buts up to the rubber seal shown in the photo on the top.

If you then tighten the two knobs, this ridge will bite into the plastic that the lyre is attached to, making a direct vibration path from the bottom bit of plastic to the top bit that the lyres are attached to. 

Basically as soon as you tighten the knobs, the thing stops isolating vibration all together. This is a major design f$%k up.

If you loosen the knobs, the vibration noise goes away. She solution is to stop that ridge biting. 

I'm going to try a few things and will get back to you. 

Chris

 

2016-01-26 14.23.33.jpg

2016-01-26 14.19.32.jpg

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Sorry, maybe I just don't get it, but that's exactly the design that works flawlessly in our setups with normally tightened screws.

The screws themselves also make a solid connection (vibration path) between bottom and top part when tightened. The actual vibration reduction is done by the lyres - else, a INV-7 with no elastic parts apart from the lyres themselves would have the same LF handling noise issue, wouldn't it? Maybe something with the screws? Cable? - But if you loosen them, the whole thing's gonna rattle.

I remember Ambient booms to be more susceptible to handling noise, but we use Panamics and K-Teks most of the time. What requires you to do any handling on the boom (except from swinging) during dialog?

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That sounds terrible! I've never used a size 1, though, maybe that resonates easier. I have a few size 4, though, a large and a small stereo kits, and none have ever even remotely sounded as you describe. Had various mics in there, as well, never a problem. So far it's only you two guys, so it may still be a defect. Although, Matthias, I'm sure you have tried various different ones for comparison? Chris, did you buy this new or used?

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Maybe there's been a change in design then....? With the ones you have is there a noticeable difference between the mount with and without the basket? Without the basket my WS1 is pretty much silent when I tap the boom, but with the basket it's awful, and looking at the design I can see why. I bought it new arrived yesterday.... Can you look at your ones and see if they have the ridge?

Don't get me wrong, in every day use it would be fine as long as you don't hit the boom, but it just seems funny that the well designed suspension mount would fall to pieces on vibration once the basket is on....  I do a lot of media scrums where boom poles are being hit. Sports and red carpets.

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The point is that without the basket, the thing never really gets tight as the mic platform is just sitting on rubber. The screws are pushing against  the rubber, but they are not totally in tension as they are only fighting the rubber, so the rubber really kills the vibration. Once the basket is in, the whole thing is solidly locked up with the entire length of the seal being solid, plus the screws being properly in tension. 

I'm not saying the Rycote isn't useable, it's industry standard. It just seems like this might be really easy to fix so that you get amazing vibration isolation with or without the basket.

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Hi, I am using the WS1 + MZL for a Sennheiser 8060. (My basket has the ridge as well.) And yes, there is a little bit of a plus of handling noise when the basket is mounted. But it is not as crass as you describe it. May be you have a defective item? I still love this set up because it is so comfortably small and along with a short ambient boom (QP 450) I can work all day almost effortlessly.

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Yes maybe mine is dodgy. Are there any washers in your system? I just had two under the thumbscrews. Are there any internally?

Also, how do you find the 8060. I just bought mine. Do you find it O.K. in noisy situations?

The main thing is that now I know what is causing the problem, I can fix it. I really love the size of this unit, and I took it out for a PTC today. Was quite bright in just the basket, but nice and crisp. Sounded O.K. background noise wise on a noisy street. I'll do some comparisons with the 416 we have here over the next week or so....

39 minutes ago, Richard Thomas said:

I think I know what it is- is the MZL cable touching the basket?

No, I checked that. It is bad even with the back off so the cable is free.

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Yes, two washers under each screw, no washers on the inside. 
In noisy situations (red carpets, mixed zones in sports) I'd hope that I am working for a reportage where handheld microphones “are allowed“. I worked on a noisy fair the other day and I was lucky to be able to boom from below so the bodies were blocking much of the noise. 
And if you do tests with the MKH 416 and the MKH 8060 please write about this!

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Yes I usually get the journalist to use a radio hand mic but quite often if it ends up in a scrum the journey can't even get in so you end up just booming what you can get. I also do pieces to camera or interviews next to roads, so I need something pretty sucky. Hope the 8060 can cut it. I previously used an MKH60, but want something windproof and with a smaller basket. The 60 is less sucky than the 416, but hopefully the 8060 is about the same....

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Chrisy,

I now use a super-shield (which is great btw) but from what I remember of the modular system there are usually several holes the tightening screws can be put in (depending which 1 you have). I can't work out from the photo if you have the medium suspension but if you do it should have at least another hole for the tightening screws - I would try it with these screws spaced as far apart as possible. Aside from that, you'll always get more handling noise between takes as you wont be trying as hard and compared to the MKH60 almost any mic will feel more sensitive to handling - the MKH60 (imho) has fantastic characteristics in this respect as well as reach. For what you're doing I think a TAC!T cable would also really help you out as the 8060 doesn't have a bass cut (or high pass) option.

dr

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Yes I have the MZL kit 1 which has the conbox included. I noticed the cable they pot on the conbox is too long and hots the back of the basket unless you put the mic quite far forward.

Either way last night I applied some small adhesive foam squares to various bits of the mount so that now the basket ridge shouldn't transfer vibration to the mic. Will test later and let you know.

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