MK41 vs. MK319

[Arnold F.]

I had occasion on a recent job to record a girl singing and I used an MK41.  However, I'm not crazy about how it sounds but I'm not sure why.  It was perhaps 10 inches from her mouth and to the side and I was rolling a 744T at 16b/48K.  I'm not sure if what I hear is a proximity effect or some kind of aliasing when she is louder and holding a note and it's hard to describe.  In any case, I'm wondering if an un-modded Oktava MK319 would better for this type of thing (or if I was just using my MK41 wrong).

A.

[jason porter]

I would never use my Mk41 that close to a singer (assuming the singer is projecting and loud)

[Eric Toline]

I would never use my Mk41 that close to a singer (assuming the singer is projecting and loud)

Good point. Take a look at any "Three Tenors" show and see how far the Schoeps are from those guys and they can get pretty loud.

Eric

[Jeff Wexler]

I'm wondering if an un-modded Oktava MK319 would better for this type of thing (or if I was just using my MK41 wrong).

A.

There is no way ANY Octava would sound better than the Schoeps --- there must be something wrong with the MK41 or its use at that time. Also, as Eric states, the distance is important but I don't think your singer could overload the mic unless they were "eating the mic" like with a Shure SM57 or something. The Schoeps is good out to about 138 dbSPL.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Philip Perkins]

I've had good luck with the MK41 fairly close many times, and Schoeps in general are mics that seem to work pretty well on almost anything.  The Oktava M319 isn't one the mics Oktava is famous for in these parts (like the MC012), it is an "ok for the price" mic aimed at the home/amateur market.  Oktavas still have QC and consistency issues that are unknown w/ high end mics like Schoeps as well.  BUT, the only way to know if a given mic will work with a given voice is to try it.  I've had my $99 Chinese mics sound really great on some people, but a lot FEWER people than my Neumann or Schoeps mics.  If you want to stay Schoeps, try the MK4 (cardioid) before you give up, and try some different mic positions while you listen.  A Neumann KM184 is a good neutral choice as well.  If you want that "big dia" sound, you can rent a Neumann U87, which generally sounds pretty great on almost everyone (the reason they are so ubiquitous in VO studios).  If you want a very cheap, very decent "large cap" mic to buy the MXL V67g is a good choice.

Philip Perkins

[jason porter]

I forgot to mention that mine is the older Blue-Dot version (less headroom).  That might be why I don't like to mic too closely on loud voices.

I would never use my Mk41 that close to a singer (assuming the singer is projecting and loud)

[Chas Gordon]

You might have been too close. I've had great success with my CMC6/41 backed off a bit from different singers, both men and women.

Look at my avatar picture to the left, that is my CMC6/41 in a Rycote zep. The guy was playing a ukilali and singing a Polynisian song. It's hard to tell but I was about 18" over his head. I had to give the camera guy some room to work with because we were on a small outrigger boat in open water off of Bora Bora. The Travel channel used that bit in their open for that story about romantic Bora Bora.

[Noah Timan]

I had occasion on a recent job to record a girl singing and I used an MK41.  However, I'm not crazy about how it sounds but I'm not sure why.  It was perhaps 10 inches from her mouth and to the side and I was rolling a 744T at 16b/48K.  I'm not sure if what I hear is a proximity effect or some kind of aliasing when she is louder and holding a note and it's hard to describe.  In any case, I'm wondering if an un-modded Oktava MK319 would better for this type of thing (or if I was just using my MK41 wrong).

A.

I have a few of the Schoeps 10 dB inline pads that go between capsule and preamp, and I like those a lot for micing loud sources at a short distance.  They're downright essential for wireless boom work on a hot source.

Keep in mind also that vocal chords can themselves distort  (there's another thread here about that subject that may be useful, though I'm not sure where to find it).  Sometimes that is what you're hearing -- it's a sound that takes a while to get used to recognizing, but when you do it's helpful in not driving yourself crazy troubleshooting and alternating your equipment.

.02 nvt

[John Blankenship]

To add to what Noah said, in my experience micing too closely can sometimes accentuate the inherent vocal distortion that he mentioned.

Rycote's Microphone database (http://www.microphone-data.com/) lists the max SPL of a Schoeps 641 as 132dB.  A CUT 1 high-pass filter boosts the signal by (IIRC) 6dB, so, in that case, the max SPL would be 6dB less.  The same is true of the blue dot version -- something like 6 to 10dB higher output and, therefore, less max SPL.  When close micing, the proximity effect would boost the lows (a hyper-cardioid more so than a cardioid) which contain exponentially greater acoustic energy than the higher frequencies, so the combination of less SPL handling and more low frequencies could definitely cause problems with a close mic-ed singer who projects well. 

A good mantra for sound mixers:  Train your ears/Trust your ears.

I wouldn't recommend using the Oktava in lieu of a Schoeps.  I own a couple of 319s, and they sound quite good -- HOWEVER... their response has some peaks and valleys which can make them less desirable if the voice is to be mixed with other tracks.  A really smooth response curve is your friend here.  It'll be MUCH easier to EQ a flatter mic to blend into a mix.  I was bit by that once using a 319.  It was a female voice-over to be mixed into a movie sound track along with sound effects, ambiance, etc.  The voice track sounded great when I recorded it raw.  Then, when I tried to mix the track I learned my lesson -- boy, did I learn my lesson.  It was extremely difficult to mix and I attribute it to the less than smooth response curve.  The response doesn't have to be perfectly flat, it needs to be extremely smooth -- otherwise, when EQ is added in post, it aggravates any peaks and valleys and that can play havoc with how all the elements share the frequency spectrum.

Happy Holidays, one and all! 

...back to wraping presents...

JB