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Cardioid on location


Donald Kauffman

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Hi guys

So I'd see myself as more of a post guy but I did my first location work the other day. All of it was indoors and I had brought along my mkh 30 / 40 set up along with my 442. Someone else provided a basic sennheiser shotgun which I can't remember the model of.

Now from my understanding a shotgun sounds bad indoors, especially tight spaces of which some of these were. The first scene had no dialogue and I started recording with my mkh 40. Then when it came to dialogue I switched to the shotgun. Why? Well I didn't feel confident judging on headphones whether or not the 40 was picking up too much room sound, especially when I couldn't get very close to the actors. Really I felt it less of a risk using a shotgun.

When getting cutaways, footsteps, movements etc I often switched to the 40 but I felt very unsure about whether or not all of these sounds should be picked up with the same mic as the dialogue (even if that mic doesn't sound so great). Do people generally stick to the same mic for both dialogue and fx/Foley? Or am I over thinking this?

And what about using an mkh 40 for indoor dialogue, is it done? I wish I could have experimented but it was all rushed and I didn't want to mess up.

All advice greatly appreciated. Hoping to feel more assured on the next outing.

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Experience begets experience, you now have one day under your belt. Your mics that you have chosen each have their place. A lot of dialogue is recorded with the 50 and you can use other mics if you need the reach. There is no one right answer, but at the same time there is not always a wrong answer. As you work with other mics, you will find the mics that you find work best for your location. Good luck on your education.

SL......

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I think your overthinking it.... Best thing you can do is use the Mics you have at your disposal, use your ears and try not to second guess yourself too much... There is no "rule" that a Cardiod should be used vs a shotgun... I generally do use a hyper cardiod inside, and a shotgun outside but not always, more than anything I listen and make a decision....

90% of the time I stick with the same mic/Mics throughout any given scene rather it be for dialogue or SFX.

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15 hours ago, Donald Kauffman said:

When getting cutaways, footsteps, movements etc I often switched to the 40 but I felt very unsure about whether or not all of these sounds should be picked up with the same mic as the dialogue (even if that mic doesn't sound so great). Do people generally stick to the same mic for both dialogue and fx/Foley? Or am I over thinking this?

It's not "fx/foley", it's "sync" ... and yes, whilst the dialogue is dominant (or favoured?) over the rest of the ambient sound (be it background atmos or specific noises of actions seen on screen) it forms a part of the dialogue/sync edit which is the basis of the sound edit tracks.

How much the ratio of non-dialogue sync is recorded or left in the edit will be a judgement call for everyone based on several factors (and sometimes that judgement will be to try to omit it completely ... as many who have shot space opera in giant sheds under Heathrow may testify).

On the plus side, just as sync dialogue generally sounds 'better' than adr, the actual sound of a physical event may have a ring of naturalness about it which could surprise and be considered desirable. We will often pull out sounds from production tracks for the FX library.

On the negative side there could be dozens of factors in play that you choose to minimise non-dialogue sound: intelligibility (combined with naturalness or timbre) being the most obvious. You don't want odd noises obscuring the words, you don't want clarity reduced by too great a background level, you don't want to be distracted from the dialogue by strange or irrelevant noises.

Sometimes the 'real' sound in a set situation may not be the desired sound for the story - aside from the obvious background atmos situations (planes in 18th Century), objects/shoes/clothing may require a completely different sound from their actual sound. Often also there is the situation where even when the 'real' sound would be correct it will have to be recorded 'clean' and subsequently recreated artificially in post so that it can be timed around the dialogue.

I don't think this is such a bad question actually Donald - I was discussing the very same thing just the other week with a (current major UK TV credit) production recordist (I'm a dialogue editor myself). A 'natural' modern day drama may have a lot more leeway than a more stylised production, and my tracks may have a good deal more ambience and spot noises within them. It is (very) rare and generally undesirable to 'focus' on the sync sounds - it is definitely your job to record the words. You will probably not be criticised by post (or production for that matter) for erring on the side of the dialogue, and the dialogue editor and the dialogue mixers continue the process of bringing the best out of the dialogue within the sync. It's really a case of understanding the aims of the film and the problems of the locations and to make your decisions ... then to be ready to further sort out individual problems as they come up. So if I understand the question right, the 'sync' will form 'a' basis of the dialogue track, but in a widely varying way, depending on the show being shot - BUT - it is not 'the' basis, the dialogue is. I (as post production) would rarely be brought to completely remove the non-dialogue portion of a production track, but I would hope and expect that I would have few or no problems from the non-dialogue sync sound to deal with. At least, not the same problems on a repeated basis!

Best, Jez

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5 hours ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

It's not "fx/foley", it's "sync" ... and yes, whilst the dialogue is dominant (or favoured?) over the rest of the ambient sound (be it background atmos or specific noises of actions seen on screen) it forms a part of the dialogue/sync edit which is the basis of the sound edit tracks.

How much the ratio of non-dialogue sync is recorded or left in the edit will be a judgement call for everyone based on several factors (and sometimes that judgement will be to try to omit it completely ... as many who have shot space opera in giant sheds under Heathrow may testify).

On the plus side, just as sync dialogue generally sounds 'better' than adr, the actual sound of a physical event may have a ring of naturalness about it which could surprise and be considered desirable. We will often pull out sounds from production tracks for the FX library.

On the negative side there could be dozens of factors in play that you choose to minimise non-dialogue sound: intelligibility (combined with naturalness or timbre) being the most obvious. You don't want odd noises obscuring the words, you don't want clarity reduced by too great a background level, you don't want to be distracted from the dialogue by strange or irrelevant noises.

Sometimes the 'real' sound in a set situation may not be the desired sound for the story - aside from the obvious background atmos situations (planes in 18th Century), objects/shoes/clothing may require a completely different sound from their actual sound. Often also there is the situation where even when the 'real' sound would be correct it will have to be recorded 'clean' and subsequently recreated artificially in post so that it can be timed around the dialogue.

I don't think this is such a bad question actually Donald - I was discussing the very same thing just the other week with a (current major UK TV credit) production recordist (I'm a dialogue editor myself). A 'natural' modern day drama may have a lot more leeway than a more stylised production, and my tracks may have a good deal more ambience and spot noises within them. It is (very) rare and generally undesirable to 'focus' on the sync sounds - it is definitely your job to record the words. You will probably not be criticised by post (or production for that matter) for erring on the side of the dialogue, and the dialogue editor and the dialogue mixers continue the process of bringing the best out of the dialogue within the sync. It's really a case of understanding the aims of the film and the problems of the locations and to make your decisions ... then to be ready to further sort out individual problems as they come up. So if I understand the question right, the 'sync' will form 'a' basis of the dialogue track, but in a widely varying way, depending on the show being shot - BUT - it is not 'the' basis, the dialogue is. I (as post production) would rarely be brought to completely remove the non-dialogue portion of a production track, but I would hope and expect that I would have few or no problems from the non-dialogue sync sound to deal with. At least, not the same problems on a repeated basis!

Best, Jez

Hi Jez. Thanks for the in depth reply.

First, yes 'sync' sounds a lot better. I know Foley and fx are different things but I couldn't think of a word to describe all other sounds bar dialogue.

Second, I think I could have worded my post a little better. When reading your reply first I couldn't understand the point you were making, but I then realised what it sounds like I'm saying. I didn't mean actually picking up all other sounds like movements etc on the same track as the dialogue. Not at all. What I meant was capturing all of that separately, like for instance getting the actor to recreate their movements without camera or dialogue to be recorded up close and isolated, and then recreated in post. My main question was that if I record the dialogue (in isolation) with a shotgun then should I also stick with that same mic when picking up sync sounds later? Or is it perfectly reasonable to switch to my far superior MKH 40 for the sync sounds? And I was also wondering if a 40 would give good results for indoor dialogue recording (might end up trading it for a 50)

Cheers

3 minutes ago, Lancashire soundie said:

I've used a couple of MKH40s for interviews for years, but we're talking no more than 12 inches above their heads.  Any more than that and I bring the MKH60 out.  They're fantastic microphones but personally, I don't like taking them too far away from the thing making the noise.

Thanks for the input. Yeah I'm not surprised you say that. I guess it's just a stretch to be using a 40 for location dialogue

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In an acoustically ideal room I think the MKH40 is fantastic for dialog. It has a bigger sweet spot that the MKH50, which I like when the blocking is sloppy or the dialog has a lot of improvisation. Also very nice for animated interview subjects with lots of leaning forward and to the side. Bad locations, noisy cameras, and crew-that-can't-shut-up keep the MKH40 in it's case more than I'd like.

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Donald, I guess you must have been right after all, not 'sync', but 'foley/fx' it is, just on location. I presume you have a relaxed enough schedule and an accomodating talent who's enjoying being a foley artist as well as actor? At first I was confused and thinking the shooting was being interrupted for foley ... or that there were maybe dialogue-less scenes that you were looking at recording differently somehow?? Whatever, the MKH40 is a great mic for voice and for spot FX, and presumably much quieter + hotter than the boom (ME66 or 80 perhaps?) so if you're doing location foley and spots by all means use the 40. Even the low noise floor will benefit, aside from the nicer sound.

The one thing I would advise, looking at the original post, is to upgrade your monitoring chain somehow, as its obviously not doing its job at enabling you to make the necessary recording decisions. A more closed headphone perhaps or a better headphone amp (which probably = better mixer or recorder)? Although its 'not about the arrows', monitoring is as much about understanding what you're hearing (which is why so many favour the horrible sound and appalling isolation of the MDR 7506!)

Jez

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