New Here... hope to learn a lot.. and a question about high end wireless mics

[65fordguy]

Hey guys, I hope this is the right place.. Im new here, I found this site while doing some research on wireless mics.. looked like a knowledgable group and had to join. 

Thanks for allowing me in.  I'm a systems engineer for a PBS station and I was all set to go to NAB this year.. but ran into some snags and couldn't make it.. So. im doing all my gear homework I can on the net. 

One area I'm researching is what lead me to this site, high end wireless mics... we have been using Sennheiser g2 and g3 mics since 2007. in the 100,300 and 500 series. 

Well.. for the most part they are ok.. they do the job. We do everything from multi camera Conference coverage to High end Documentaries in our dept and they have been super flexible in letting us move from application to application with ease.  

Even though we all here in our dept like the Sennheisers, they prove over and over again to have random weird noises, pops, drop outs and fizzles... recently I was speaking with one of our reps at KeyCode Media, they recommended going to the 2000 series.. which I get is a good jump over the g2 and g3.. however, I still see a lot of references to the same issues with noises.  The names that first came to mind when searching for a solution was Lectrosonic,audio ltd and Zaxcom.. That said.. we have some older lectrosonics here in another dept.. to me they are rather lacking and overly simple devices..work horses no doubt.  Once I pointed out these concerns to Keycode, they tried to reassure me on the 2000.. but are supposed to give me some info on the higher end 5000 series stuff after NAB.  So.. longer story made short I came across some articles here.. and thought Id join up and ask you guys what you think.  I have 0 experience with the newer products from zaxcom, audio ltd, and lectrosonics.. I've dealt solely with Sennheiser and sony for the last 10 years. Looking to broaden my knowledge of these newer mics. What are your thoughts and opinions ..  My biggest thing with the mics I get.. I just want them to be solid performers that keep my clients, producers, and shooters happy.. with as little to no random pops, fizzles, and static.  I appreciate any info and knowledge you guys can share. Thanks again for having me here. 

[Mirror]

Sounds to me that you have frequency and/or reception problems. Having gear is one thing, knowing how to use the gear correctly is another. I'm guessing that you are bumping up against other freqs - perhaps from outside sources (radio, TV, other productions) or inside sources (video & audio transmitters, remote focus, cell phones ect.). Perhaps your range is too great between Rx and Tx.

I'd try to isolate the true source of your problem before blaming the gear. Your g2's and g3's should be doing a better job then you're describing.

[65fordguy]

Well it's never in the same environment... Same noises no matter if 5 feet or 25..its a completely random thing they all do it at some point.. I have 13 of them. In different ranges ABC 500 600 700..700 being the best and are 500 series 

Also.. I don't mean for this to sound like it's an always problematic thing.. I can go hours without issue on one mic and have another freaking out one day... And be flip flop the next in the same room. Especially the fizzle and drop outs.  We can be in our studio.. in a hotel.. in a field.. it never really matters.  The only time it is a problem is when we are doing on location live streaming and we get pops, fizzles, or drop outs going out live... this is the main complaint.. now with my larger field switching rigs and audio rigs the receivers are base stations with a proper antenna.. These guys really never have any issues.. when they do its a fizzle sound.  Its the ENG kits that have the issues.  

[Mirror]

What recorder are you using? Do you have a dedicated recorder or are you recording straight to the camera?  I'm asking this because some recorders put out RF and if you put the Rx and recorder next to each other in the bag without some type of shielding you can pick up some RF splatter . You can search for this problem on this site. 

On the other hand a higher end wireless unit like the Lectros have filters on the front end and back end (depending on what model you buy) and also have scanning abilities to find clearer freqs.

 

[65fordguy]

We have a Tascam HS-P82 recorder... but, most often these are attached to a camera ( Canon C300 Mark II, 5D, Sony EX3, Sony Pmw 400k, Panasonic AJPX270)  other times they would be attached to a sound rig or video switching rig, which uses an AJA KiPro Rack for Program record in both our field Rigs.. and a Black Magic HyperDeck Pro in our larger kit which has built in recorders in a Tricaster 8000 box.  

The sounds are consistent across all.  It isn't just a horrible thing either.. but its enough to be noticed by clients. I had it happen at a live event a little while back where a mic just would not act right.. I would check frequencies.. get a good clean signal.. go about 15 min and  get static.change it.. get static.. switched to another mic different range, small ducking in the audio. check frequencies and change it up, still does it..just wasn't that noticeable.. set up another kit in another freq range while the presenter was going on so I could swap when he took a break ( these things go on for 6-8 hrs with breaks )the whole time I've got the mic on listening and watching the replacement ..nothing wrong.working good. get it on the guy and finally Im good.. about 2hrs in.. ( battery still full ) fizzles. !!!!@#$@#$ lol. it was a struggle.. but thats about as bad as it gets.. 

On a Doc shoot or a interview for something, it isn't as big of a deal.. If its a person who we are concerned about it affecting we will use the 500 series mics in the 700 band or the 300 series ones... they yield better results.

[Moesound]

Sounds as though Mirror tried to help...but I'll throw my two cents in: 700 band is not only no longer legal, but unwisely chosen. 

Regards,

Moe

[Mirror]

Ahh... I did over look the band.  Good catch, Moesound.

[65fordguy]

You would be correct... These are the 2 units I primarily need to change..  I bought these back in 06 or 07. After these became illegal I removed them from the kits...and management at the time didn't see it wise to really invest in expensive mics .. so I got 100s to replace them.. our staff and work load exploded over the last few years under new management and now sending multiple crews out.. It was only this past year they got brought back out.. and that was by accident of one of the newer guys not knowing.  To which I had to put my foot in my mouth after the other mics I made him use gave us issue and that mic worked. I have them on our list to be removed from inventory this year. They keep wanting to use them. 

Im just trying to move forward and up. I believe the 2000s have a better reach and all around good step up. But if I can take the opportunity while I have it to get better performing gear I want to take it. I just have no new experiences with any of the newer  lectros or zaxcom mics for comparison.. Hoping you guys can share yours.  I didn't really mean for this post to be about my old mics.. I wish I could get them to act right.. I do like them and have no regrets with them. The 100s especially just don't seem to keep up with us very well, they work fine for small stuff.. especially close range. 

I have also had to fix a lot of the antennas... the plastic/rubber shielding cracks off of the antenna. This did not affect the problems with the mic.. it still persist as it did. lol a guy working for one of the production companies in Little Rock had the 2000s that are doing the same thing he just wrapped it in electrical tape. He liked this fix better.  Either way .. a device that has replaceable antenna would be nice. 

[65fordguy]

I was looking around here and see folks seem to like the Audio LTD .. I have 0 experience with that brand.. it is just something I have heard about. Would be curious to hear some first hand knowledge of these devices. 

 

[codyman]

From my experiences here in Los Angeles doing production sound, it seems to me that Lectrosonics and Zaxcom are the most prevalent "pro" mics used around here, with Sennheiser G3's being used for low budget kits.  I don't have experience with Audio LTD nor Wisycom (although I know both are very good) but it seems to me for the documentary films you're working on, maybe you should look into Lectrosonic's L Series wireless mics?  They are three blocks each so you'll have some flexibility with available frequencies, solid build quality, and the more affordable entrance into the Lectrsonics world.  They also offer the new Lectrosonics SRc dual channel receiver which could be used as well with a whole variety of transmitters (both three block ones like the L series as well as older single block mics).  I've been using my Lectrosonics SMQV transmitters with SRb (previous generation) receivers for years now and they sound great and have never let me down!

[Mirror]

All professional gear will work. Sometimes it won't work 100% of the time. RF is loaded with gremlins. It's hard to diagnose your problem without being there  to see what you're doing.

[berniebeaudry]

I worked for a PBS station for 20 years doing location sound and helping to maintain our field audio packages.  It was a constant battle to keep things organized and maintained because the other operators treated the gear with less care than I did.  It looks to me like your antennas are taking some abuse.  I don't know if that could be part of your issues but its something to consider.  

All of the major brand, high end units work very well.  I think a demo of the units you're interested in would be a good way to see if the sound quality, menu structure, and rf performance would be suitable for your facility and operators.  Also consider customer service and repair convenience.  There's a good document on the Lectro site about rf operation that isn't specific to Lectro.  There's an app available for your phone called Freq Finder that helps with determining inner mod between units and has a television station look up feature to show nearby tv stations and their power and frequency.  Personally I own four of the Lectro L series codyman mentioned, and one older 200 series units.  They're all solid performers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[65fordguy]

Thanks codyman, I know the guys on the other end of our building have been using their Lectros for at least 10 years or better  ( like us on the Senn.) and they seem to like them. I can't remember what model they are.. I know they were an entry level unit for the brand.  I don't get a lot of feed back from them as far as issues with the mic.. but they have come to me about what to do with mounting them on cameras.  The recievers are so big and the cameras nowadays are so  small.. they used to mount them on old DVCAM camera backs. That is one advantae the Senn has .. the Hot shoe mount. I have a bracket that I can mount 2 in one shoe mount. But at this point where I mount isn't as important as quality. Just had one of our producers pop in .. she had been in a room shooting for a couple hours fine and then started to get the noises.. she said it sounded like a 1940s radio tuning sound effect you hear used on TV. It was a live deal. she couldn't just stop the show. so its there.  These are the kinds of things I get feed back on from my folks.. and things I really want to remedy for them. 

[codyman]

1 minute ago, 65fordguy said:

I don't get a lot of feed back from them as far as issues with the mic.. but they have come to me about what to do with mounting them on cameras.  The recievers are so big and the cameras nowadays are so  small..

That's the great thing about these new L-Series Lectros.  The LR receiver has a hot shoe adapter (I don't know if it comes standalone with the receiver but there are two transmitter/receiver kits for the L Series that I know for a fact it does come with) that you can easily mount it to the hot shoe of anything ranging from a DSLR or any other camera used out in the field these days.  Before buying any gear, make sure to do some research about the areas you mostly will be filming in because battling RF interference is an unfortunate aspect of our lives even more so these days.  I'd stay away from anything in the 600mhz range because that's being mulled by the FCC right now as being put onto the auction block and phased out much like the 700mhz range was a few years back.

[berniebeaudry]

My LT/LR units came with hot shoe mounts for the receivers.  The antennas are jointed too so the orientation can be optimized while mounted on a camera.

 

[65fordguy]

Thanks.. YES! the struggle is real.. I have a good grasp on the treatment of gear nowadays.. still have the occasional problem to deal with.. Some of these mics are getting up there in age. We bought the first 4 in 06 07.. and 4 more in 09.. 2 to replace the 700 bands.. then 4 more in 2012 and another in 13 or so.    Also have 4 racked in a portable case .. these guys have no issue.  I am more than open to exploring options of Lectro and other top brands.  It is my goal to get the best gear I can for the money.  If that is Senn.. ok.. if that is Audo LTD, Lectro, Zaxcom... Im game.  My former employment loved Sony Mics.. I can't say I ever had any issues.. and I have some wired Sony mics here. they do their job well.. I've seen guys run these sony wired lav mics down to a Wireless XLR plug on transmitter... I've tried it a few times where I needed a random mic ( that was off topic sorry ) 

 

5 minutes ago, berniebeaudry said:

I worked for a PBS station for 20 years doing location sound and helping to maintain our field audio packages.  It was a constant battle to keep things organized and maintained because the other operators treated the gear with less care than I did.  It looks to me like your antennas are taking some abuse.  I don't know if that could be part of your issues but its something to consider.  

All of the major brand, high end units work very well.  I think a demo of the units you're interested in would be a good way to see if the sound quality, menu structure, and rf performance would be suitable for your facility and operators.  Also consider customer service and repair convenience.  There's a good document on the Lectro site about rf operation that isn't specific to Lectro.  There's an app available for your phone called Freq Finder that helps with determining inner mod between units and has a television station look up feature to show nearby tv stations and their power and frequency.  Personally I own four of the Lectro L series codyman mentioned, and one older 200 series units.  They're all solid performers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[berniebeaudry]

As an aside, Fox and CBS use the Sennheiser 2000 series for NFL broadcasts.  They use the Sennheiser hand held units for the sideline reporters and the body packs for the parabolic mics.   The receivers are racked mounted and have remote antennas of varying configurations. Even those high end systems can have problems but you're talking very long distances and rf congested venues.  The body packs have removable antennas.  I've not seen the Sony brand used very much, although my former station has the slot in camera receivers with the digital transmitters which are used to wirelessly link to the camera.  Those work fine and sound good.

All of the Sennheiser ranges have the same menu structure which is convenient if you're just adding to what you already use. 

[65fordguy]

8 minutes ago, codyman said:

That's the great thing about these new L-Series Lectros.  The LR receiver has a hot shoe adapter (I don't know if it comes standalone with the receiver but there are two transmitter/receiver kits for the L Series that I know for a fact it does come with) that you can easily mount it to the hot shoe of anything ranging from a DSLR or any other camera used out in the field these days.  Before buying any gear, make sure to do some research about the areas you mostly will be filming in because battling RF interference is an unfortunate aspect of our lives even more so these days.  I'd stay away from anything in the 600mhz range because that's being mulled by the FCC right now as being put onto the auction block and phased out much like the 700mhz range was a few years back.

Good to know! I will say the 500s I have do have less interference issues.  We film all over the place. One day we will be in the city.. the next in the mountains... the next in a school. and I could have another crew at a  conference center at the same time.  There are occasions where we go out off state to film.. we have been recently to Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia, Tennessee, Boston, Washington DC, or Hartford Connecticut. Why I think it might be a good Idea to have some more diversity in my gear. If all we did was film in studio.. or in one general location I feel this would be easier.  The guys on the other end of the building shoot pretty diversely as well.. but for the most part they work on ongoing formula shows.Their bigger field productions have a production truck.  I've got roll in gear for larger events.. most of which aren't truck friendly.. in downtown 3rd story event halls, museums, and so so on. 

These same mics are used in Doc and promo shoots with the C300 Mark IIs, Panasonics and Canon 5ds... Recently was at the Ark. Capitol filming the governor.. ( one of those folks we have to keep a real good reputation with) I made sure I had mics scanned and back ups ready. I had 15 min to shoot 12 min worth of Promo sit downs with him.  Luckily.. the mics performed as they should. 

[berniebeaudry]

2 minutes ago, 65fordguy said:

Good to know! I will say the 500s I have do have less interference issues.  We film all over the place. One day we will be in the city.. the next in the mountains... the next in a school. and I could have another crew at a  conference center at the same time.  There are occasions where we go out off state to film.. we have been recently to Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia, Tennessee, Boston, Washington DC, or Hartford Connecticut. Why I think it might be a good Idea to have some more diversity in my gear. If all we did was film in studio.. or in one general location I feel this would be easier.  The guys on the other end of the building shoot pretty diversely as well.. but for the most part they work on ongoing formula shows.Their bigger field productions have a production truck.  I've got roll in gear for larger events.. most of which aren't truck friendly.. in downtown 3rd story event halls, museums, and so so on. 

These same mics are used in Doc and promo shoots with the C300 Mark IIs, Panasonics and Canon 5ds... Recently was at the Ark. Capitol filming the governor.. ( one of those folks we have to keep a real good reputation with) I made sure I had mics scanned and back ups ready. I had 15 min to shoot 12 min worth of Promo sit downs with him.  Luckily.. the mics performed as they should. 

Wow sounds like your station is thriving!  That's wonderful!  I enjoyed my time at our station and still work there as a part timer.  I had so many good adventures while there.  Sounds like broadband would be the preferred way to go.  Get that app, as it will tell you exactly what you're dealing with re: nearby tv stations anywhere you go in the country.

[Wandering Ear]

Some very good suggestions already on how to improve the reliability of your RF systems with a combination of knowledge and equipment.  It does sound to me like you are pushing the capabilities of your existing gear.

One thing I would consider since you have so many people using the units is how user friendly they are.  I would suggest calling your audio dealer and asking for a demo unit to test, or rent a set for a couple days and try them out.    I think you will find all of the top end wireless to preform quite well, so the other factors may be what makes the decision for you.  The lectro L series, and the SR series receivers have good mounting options for the cameras you work with.

[65fordguy]

This is one kit I was looking at Check out what I found on B&H Photo Video http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1102618-REG

This looks like a nice kit as well Check out what I found on B&H Photo Video http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/968021-REG

[berniebeaudry]

59 minutes ago, 65fordguy said:

This is one kit I was looking at Check out what I found on B&H Photo Video http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1102618-REG

This looks like a nice kit as well Check out what I found on B&H Photo Video http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/968021-REG

The first one is the set I bought.  I would highly recommend not purchasing from b&h and instead go with any of the pro audio dealers that you'll find on this site.  My go to is Pro-Sound.  Audio Department, Trew Audio, Gotham Sound, Tai Audio, are also excellent pro audio dealers that will give you great personal service and know what they're talking about.

[Jim Feeley]

38 minutes ago, berniebeaudry said:

 I would highly recommend not purchasing from b&h and instead go with any of the pro audio dealers that you'll find on this site. 

Totally! As Bernie says, you'll get better pre- and post-sales support, and probably will pay the same price. 

[65fordguy]

Thanks.. I have seen these names pop up from time to time.. but usually I have to deal with who has state ( we are a state agency)  contracts for purchasing.. Bhphoto is one.. I deal with Keycode, Abelcinetech, and few others.. but im always down to do the work to get new vendors added into the state if it is worth the efforts and process to do so. 

 

[Jim Feeley]

It's worth the effort in this case. Especially if some of those key dealers don't carry all the brands discussed in this article, and since the three you list don't, to my knowledge, have deep experience with location audio and a grip on the current and coming issue with spectrum use. Good luck!