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One man crew - video/AUDIO system advice needed


Tom R

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Hi,

 

So you are just starting to shoot or have lots of experience shooting on the road on paid jobs?

Your post production experience has little bearing on whether you will be a good shooter. Its a completely different enviroment and skill. If you are a one man band the gig is entirely yours. The buck stops with you. You are on your own....

Are you shooting on primes,  cine or dslr lenses on the FS5? This makes a difference to set up time. The fs5 is a very small camera. Where are you gonna mount all these rf devices??

How skilled are you with lighting a scene or area quickly for 4k or HD? Tracking focus esp. In 4k, exposure in changing conditions, focus at low f stops, framing? Or is it a fix it in post....

Do you know the talent and the guests? Worked with them before? Know their temperament?  Do you know how will you react when they have a strop on set when you are already under pressure and a radio mic is crackling away and the fs5 wont play nice??

 

Sorry to sound so negative but it really doesn t sound you ve asked these questions of yourself before worrying about dual channel mics and carting a mixer around along with everything else.

After 20 years on these types of jobs,   I know they are not easy for even seasoned professionals and i ve seen many a VJ break down under the stress of having to do everything themselves for something with less production requirement. Something has to give and if it aint equipment failure its their own sanity and the 'production values'. 

 

Have you sorted your public liability and indemnity? Production and kit insurance? If your presenter trips while you are directing them you are liable. 

Just some food for thought....

 

 

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5 minutes ago, GlennP said:

Hi,

 

So you are just starting to shoot or have lots of experience shooting on the road on paid jobs?
Experienced shooting with smaller DSLR systems, but not cine/reality systems

Your post production experience has little bearing on whether you will be a good shooter. Its a completely different enviroment and skill. If you are a one man band the gig is entirely yours. The buck stops with you. You are on your own....
Yep, when I say I'm from a post BG, I don't mean this will help me in the field, I know it's going to be a challenge and I need practice with the gear, which I'm fortunate to have time for.

Are you shooting on primes,  cine or dslr lenses on the FS5? This makes a difference to set up time. The fs5 is a very small camera. Where are you gonna mount all these rf devices??
Most probably canon 24-105 (as main lens for actuality) w/ Metabnes adaptor for E to EF mount, to avoid hassle of changing lots - still in testing process

How skilled are you with lighting a scene or area quickly for 4k or HD? Tracking focus esp. In 4k, exposure in changing conditions, focus at low f stops, framing? Or is it a fix it in post....
Not hugely skilled in lighting but its not essential for the nature of this shoot - When I say doco, it's kind of doco/reality hybrid and 80% outside and potentially moving around/following talent..  No I do not want to fix it in post! haha

Do you know the talent and the guests? Worked with them before? Know their temperament?  Do you know how will you react when they have a strop on set when you are already under pressure and a radio mic is crackling away and the fs5 wont play nice??
Presenters are my business partners for the production, She'll be right!

Sorry to sound so negative but it really doesn t sound you ve asked these questions of yourself before worrying about dual channel mics and carting a mixer around along with everything else.

After 20 years on these types of jobs,   I know they are not easy for even seasoned professionals and i ve seen many a VJ break down under the stress of having to do everything themselves for something with less production requirement. Something has to give and if it aint equipment failure its their own sanity and the 'production values'. 
Yeah I'm expecting there to be a few hick ups a long the way.. Luckily there will be a very laid back production vibe and time on our hands... Hopefully whatever rears it head can be rectified easily enough!

 

Have you sorted your public liability and indemnity? Production and kit insurance? If your presenter trips while you are directing them you are liable. 
Will sus out insurances before trip. Thanks for the tips!

Just some food for thought....
 

 

 

 

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I think just to summarize again... I'm 95% production sound mixer, 3% post sound, 1% post post (enough to be dangerous and at least know the terminologies and challenges of the workflow), 1% shooter (occasional b-roll, but mostly personal special interest projects).  There's a time and place for 1-man band, I get that.  There's also a lot of cool gear to help make this all manageable, but the thought of 1-man band double system sound... ugh... audio bracketing... yucky.. I'd rather have a 1 track I know is good rather than 2 that I'm hoping are ok - with the fidelity of modern gear and ability to regain in post, just track at safe levels.  Timecode... sure you can actually jam timecode over HDMI from the few pieces out there that are capable of doing that, but at the end of the day, really... just keep it simple.

FS5 you have now, you can put a very nice shotgun up top.  If you shoot in quiet locations, you solve almost all of your problems in one fell swoop.  I like to tell people, sound is the easiest job in the world, all you have to do is bring a microphone and don't forget to plug it in.  It's all the little (and not so little) problems that arise (you know, like walls, other people and their vehicles, rich people that like well manicured lawns, stupid bugs and inconsiderate mouth breathers, stupid nature and it's rain and rivers and stuff like that) that F it up for everyone.  You can even carry a single lav mic and plug that into channel 2.  It's not rocket science, knock yourself out if you think it helps, but as soon as you exceed the capabilities of what you have built into the FS5 or doing something that is critical - bring a mixer (person) on board.  Subject needs powder?  Sure carry that - dab away, but working with a model that needs pro makeup or high profile politician, hire makeup for the day... same with lighting, etc...

If I were in your situation... looking at what you are dealing with, ask myself "self, can I hire a mixer for my projects?"  If the answer is no, then take a look at the gear and solve it technically.  Really... the FS5 is just not up to the task you are asking of it.  You can bolt on Zooms, Tascams, have autonomous Zaxcom recorders - sure in theory it works, but K.I.S.S.  Make the commitment and buy or rent an FS7 and utilize the 4 channel recording.  Sony preamps are good enough.  1 shotgun on channel 1, and can use the Sony MI and fancy Sony dual receivers for channels 3/4 lavs, even with a spare input on channel 2 for what ever may come... PA feed, helicopter coms, 3rd lav, boom mic...  and again, when you outgrow the scope of that kit on a particular day, need more lavs or really hectic shoot - just hire the mixer, modern production is infinitely scaleable up / down and we are used to day playing and hopping on different jobs - audio gigalos, it's not a marriage.

Almost all non-scripted work really requires crossing coverage anyways, are you really going to cover 2 or more people with just a single camera?  1 shotgun for each and 1 lav for each is pretty elegant - works great for interviews too, 1 camera can lock off on the 2 shot and the camera you operate bounces between the wide and closeups as needed - no matter how you slice it, seems like you are either undermanned or under geared.

My own personal camera rig is coming along pretty nice, A7S, Arri MMB-2 with a selection of filters, Sachtler tripod, PIX-E7, IDX V-lock plate and rigging - gonna add a Dedo light soon I think and some toys like curved sliders... and of course as a mixer I have a relatively infinite supply of sound firepower to bring to bear, but when I shoot, I don't.  I avoid all the things that you are investigating / suggesting, jut because I know when I'm operating, I don't want to deal with the additional complexities of sound, and I would consider myself an "expert" at it too.  Because I have the PIX, I basically max out at 4 channels (2 embedded HDMI from camera and 2 XLR inputs).  If I needed to plug into a professional workflow - multi-cam, working with a mixer, I could, because the PIX has an LTC input.  With the FS5 your never going to be able to fit into a "professional" multi-camera situation, so work with it now, but I'd consider it a nice B-cam for the long term.  (or again, just rent when needed - camera guys are screwed because cameras change every year - really have to calculate if purchasing a camera really makes sense - it does sometimes but not always)

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On 5/16/2016 at 8:09 PM, Tom R said:

 

There are two main presenters who 90% of the time need to be simultaneously mic'd up with lav mics. And there will often be a third person/talent that needs to be mic'd as well

what is the nature of this shoot and type of location? is this a pseudo panel discussion with a moderator in conference room or classroom or small auditorium? if so, and there is a sound system with mics in place you could just take a line level feed and be done with it.

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Whilst I agree with most of what Tom says (and defer to his greater wisdom) especially on a good camera mounted 'boom' mic and the good location stuff. If OP is not booking a sound person because of a reason other than money then having a small drop bag to back up what he's doing on camera gives him just a little more 'rope' (bracketing or not - but if you can, why wouldn't you?). Like I say, a relatively cheap dual receiver (the new sony 1) that can send both channels to 1 camera I/P for example, leaving the other camera I/P for a nice 'boom' mic keeps things small, tidy and as simple as it can be (k.i.s.s.), given what he's asking for. If he's been doing DSLR stuff the chances are he will have 1 shooting a wide for safety etc. I know a few shooters who prefer the FS5 over the FS7 and managing 4 channels attached to a camera wouldn't be my idea of simple or tidy. imho

 

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6 hours ago, JWL said:

Lets be honest, He sounds like he's on a tight budget and not trying to take any sound Mixers jobs so lets cut him some slack. He's come to JWSound for advice which is what this forum is supposed to be all about, so lets give it to him.

...

A little clarification might be needed here.  I don't mean to speak for Jeff, and he knows he's welcome to correct me if I misspeak, but the above statement is incorrect.

This is a forum by, and for, professional sound mixers.  We support each other, we offer suggestions to help fellow professionals up their game, and we share perspectives on enjoying a solid career in this oft underappreciated pursuit.  

Helping someone obtain compromised audio by not hiring a professional sound mixer is actually not within the designed purpose of this forum.

That doesn't mean professionals here can't help this person, but it's nonetheless important to understand what "this forum is supposed to be all about."

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3 hours ago, Lancashire soundie said:

Personally, I'd get a few Zaxcom ZFR recorders, wire them up with visible lapel mics, put fresh batteries in them twice a day, and leave them rolling.  You then only need to deal with your camera mic (easy), and timecode sync (also easy with one of the many cheap timecode devices now on the market).  I wouldn't even concern myself with radio mic receivers, you'll have far too much work to do.  And I think you should warn whoever you're working for that unless they hire a soundman, there will be unforeseen problems - not the least of which will be you being knackered at the end of every day.  Working on your own with nobody to help can be extremely tiring.

I’ve always been interested in checking out the ZFR300s, but have been confused by the specs.  They are equipped with NeverClip, and the spec on NeverClip for the ZFR claims 125dB of dynamic range.  However, when you look at the actual product page on the Zaxcom site for the ZFR300, it says the Dynamic Range is only 104 dB. I was looking at these for an aviation project, but ended up disabling the radio on my transmitter and just went with that.  Does anyone know which spec prevails? 

As far as the ZFR Workflow, it was also mentioned by Glenn in another thread:   

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/23134-documentary-production-sound-options-mixpre-d-zaxcom-zfr100-and-erx/

+1 on Tentacle Sync for adding timecode to your FS5 - plus they come with software for sync

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Hi Mate,

 

Sounds like you ve thought some of this through. 😀

A one man production is like a juggling act. For a while you keep everything up in the air then another thing gets thrown up and another and another.

 

I think shooting-directing-producing  and then looking after 4 channels of sound is a very, very tall order. Even more precarious if dual system and with TC and remote recording lavs. On a simply practical level thats a hell of a lot of batteries and SD/CF cards to manage for camera, lavs, recorder, mixer etc. 

I think as a shooter/director you will end up compromising the sound on this production. 

 

Its your show though so you decide. 

 

Best of luck mate!

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7 hours ago, Tom Visser said:

Make the commitment and buy or rent an FS7 and utilize the 4 channel recording.

Yeah I hear what you mean about the Fs7, it's frustrating that it could make life easier, I never realised it was 4ch until a few days ago! But regardless of Specs, I have a budget to meet and for that reason the FS5 seemed like the logical choice for me with the Fs7 being about $5000 NZD more... I was originally looking at the Canon C100 MKII which would have been even cheaper and looks like a  great cam, but it seems a little outdated now.. The main turning point being it only shoots 8-bit 420, where the Fs5 is full broadcast friendly 10-bit 422 (even at 200fps when the c100 only does 50fps(pal) which is a nice bonus) + the advantages of 4K - hopefully bettered with future firmware updates with raw recording etc... Anyway thats not what we're here to talk about...

Also due to the budget, I am now almost definitely thinking of renting/borrowing gear as whatever option I go with it's going to cost more than what I expected and I might as well rent to get the better gear... After reading through everything (determined to make it work) I am thinking either:

1. the zaxcom setup, with a shotgun on camera is a goody (If its not too pricey to even rent) Seems like the whole 'never clip' feature would benefit me hugely and I've seen these used (and worked in post) on many productions at my last job, so I know that could work great, but also know there are a few issues that inevitably occur like people not checking the battery or monitoring and losing 40mins of someones mic... However this is on reality shows where the amount of talent/ZFR's ranges from 8-23 and I have A LOT more time than these guys to be setting up stuff and checking stuff... This also sounds like a good system to keep the rig nice and free'd up. I know you never want to be neglecting your audio - but in this situation theres bound to be moments where I have to focus predominantly on what I'm doing with camera and this system seems like on of the safest - as long as I keep on top of batteries/SD's and monitoring (specifically checking before shooting sequences/scens etc)

2. The bag drop mixer + Sony dual receiver into the MI hot shoe, plus a shotgun - First thing I don't like about this idea is 'dropping' the bag somewhere and leaving on the ground because if I have to track talent if they move away from where we started recording (Should never be stupidly far though) I just don't know if I would feel comfortable leaving tech like that unattended as a lot of this could be in public places etc. I do however like having the free'd up rig and in camera mix (for sync/backup etc) and having your bag with the main audio... Not overly keen on the whole bracketing thing if I can manage to keep the levels low enough on the mixer so they don't peak (and bump up a LITTLE in post if need be) in which case I would prefer to just buy a Tascam unit for a lot cheaper. 

The thing I'm still struggling to understand (even if it has been briefly explained, and I apologise if so) but with the dual receiver, what do you have in terms of final outputted tracks? If you're saying the shotgun would also plug into the 'mic in' on the RX on the hotshot, then surely that means the two lapels will be mixed into one ch and the shotgun in the other ch, as we all know the camera only record 2 ch - hence the problems... If so, does the dual receiver have the ability to still keep the lapels on seperate channels if plugged into a multichannel recorder in the bag drop situation? If not then that is an issue, not a write off as if the idea is still the safest then I would consider the sacrifice, but to me it seems like an added risk as if one mic ruffles/distorts then both are fucked? 

3. Still really like the idea of the Tascam unit mounted underneath camera with 4 inputs (potentially 3 with a dual RX for presenters) from all mic's and the 2ch mixed output into cam for monitoring - Love that idea... It's the same substitution of Tascam in option 2, If I can have the mic's recording at a safe enough (but not too low) level that they generally won't clip unless there is extremely increased levels, in which case I would have all 4 input level dials in front of me tweak if need be. I also have no gear left on ground and atleast I can monitor and hear if something is not right and fix before it becomes a huge problem.. + less SD cards scattered around, just a little bonus. I would just buy a unit like this outright if I went with it. Issues I can see with this setup:

a. As people have said, overcomplicated the camera rig with multiple receivers etc... If I was able to use a dual receiver (ideally still with split presenter channels into separate tracks) and then another receiver (whether its dual or not) for the guest talent, then theres a few options I have seen online that don't seem to unreasonable, like this type of thing: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/685141-REG/J_Rod_THE_J_CUBE_The_J_Cube_Accessory_Shoe.html - which in desperate times would still leave a free hotshoe on top for an LED light for night scenes... I know, I know shhh.

b. Having the tascam could create issues for mounting onto/from tripod to shoulder rig etc... I'm going into my local today so will give it jam there.


In conclusion, I'm siding more with 1 and 2, probably zaxcam if its going to be cheap enough to rent/borrow and be the least stress free so I can worry on shooting (directing is only a secondary input as we're a tight crew all multi tasking) - there is a 'main' director. It sounds like the safest option definitely having each mic recorded to a separate track and the never clip feature, plus my hands are more free of recievers/bags/mixers (bar one receiever for monitoring?) and only have the shotgun plugged into the camera.
 

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The simplest workflow I can think of, and I can't vouch for the sound except that there will be some, is to grab 3 of those auto gaining sennheiser wireless kits. Plug them into a recorder that has mix assist and run a mono mix feed to your fs5. Put a nice mic on top of the camera in a good suspension and run that into your second channel. Or if you're cool with mounting something under the camera, substitute a zoom f8 for the recorder with mix assist. Keep all of the lavs exposed. Figure out which types and chemistries of batteries you can use to minimize the amount of battery changes on the day. Use plural eyes for sync. 

Again, this probably won't provide the best results, but should be useable and fairly clean. And I haven't used those auto gaining wireless so I can't comment on any caveats, ymmv... 

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The whole Zaxcom recording thing - yes it is very cool, can rally save your butt sometimes and allows you to get sound that you would never have been able to otherwise, but the day 1 / day 2 / day 3 cool factor is not the same as the day 60 cool factor.  I asked myself "why the hell am I creating all this extra work for myself at the end of every wrap day"?  thus prompting me to invest in a beefier recording rig and loving not having to wrangle and transfer micro-SD cards anymore.  Now I only do it when I really have to - need sound 50' under water?  Sure I can do that?  Doing a long horse ride and have no F'ing clue what the plan is, where camera sound are going to be able to bound?  Sure I can do that.  Skydiving and landing in a moving vehicle, but don't know exactly where the vehicle will be - no prob, but excepting situations like that - no thanks, not ending my day with Zaxconvert anymore.

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18 hours ago, John Blankenship said:

Helping someone obtain compromised audio by not hiring a professional sound mixer is actually not within the designed purpose of this forum.

I go through conversations like that all the time on the Red User group. There's a guy up there now who's asking whether it's OK if (basically) he gets rid of the sound department and just hires a boom op to record everything directly on the Red camera. I countered that he's not really looking for advice; he's looking for justification to do things the cheap and dirty way.

My point is that he'd be better off finding a way to get an affordable sound mixer, a couple of wireless mics, a boom, and a multitrack recorder just to free the camera operator from worrying about whether the levels are correct. I get a little frustrated when I encounter people who are willing to spend $40,000 on a Red Epic camera (or god forbid, $50,000 on a Red Weapon), plus another $25K-$50K on lenses, but won't spend $5000 on sound. Too often it's just madness and mediocrity over there.

I do get that there are doco situations, run & gun situations, and shooting in war situations where it's hard to justify a 3- or 4-man crew. But it's baffling to me where there are people shooting scripted productions and then not budgeting for a reasonable sound crew. And by that I don't mean $250 a day for a guy, a boom, and a bag.

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7 minutes ago, daniel said:

Can "QC" audio of multiple ZFRs be monitored in realtime on a single ERX2TCD? If not, no monitoring = passenger to unknown destination. 

It can, but not simultaneously. Each ZFR would have to be in its own frequency, and the ERX would have to flip between each, which is quite easy to setup using alt frequencies.

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16 minutes ago, Jose Frias said:

It can, but not simultaneously. Each ZFR would have to be in its own frequency, and the ERX would have to flip between each, which is quite easy to setup using alt frequencies.

So like PFL monitoring of each channel/recorder only.

 

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