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Guys, shooting a series. Director insist on whispering actors... And it's a goddam Red!!!! Fan is killing me!! Anybody knows the setup on a red Scarlett dragon for the fan. Right now it's on adaptive preview and quiet recording... And it ain't quiet on recording!!!!

Thanks

Pascal

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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It's a Fan-tastic opportunity to tell your actors and directors that ADR the is imminent! Actors and directors love that shit, and that just hit the fan..

On a side note.. Working on a series right now where in the beginning the focus puller kept insisting on being right next to the action with his monitor, and the thing had a teradek receiver on it, which had a fan. So in scenes where we'd have no noise issues whatsoever, he'd come marching in with his monitor and make things harder. The guy quit eventually and the new guy sits with the camera

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3 hours ago, pvanstry said:

Guys, shooting a series. Director insist on whispering actors... And it's a goddam Red!!!! Fan is killing me!! Anybody knows the setup on a red Scarlett dragon for the fan. Right now it's on adaptive preview and quiet recording... And it ain't quiet on recording!!!!

Thanks

Pascal

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hire the new Cedar unit!

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I don't want to hire the new Cedar--what a terrible precedent to set, I'm sure you were joking!   There are settings to manage the fan of RED cams in all but the most sweltering situations, your cam dept just needs to get with the menus and figure them out.  Don't be afraid to play the ADR card with the director and producer if you get no action on this.

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This is from Simon Hayes: 

The Adaptive preview quiet mode set to 25% WILL NOT allow the camera to overheat- why would red design it if it did? It's design is specifically for sync sound.

We are shooting on VERY hot sets right now with 4 cameras set to this setting with NONE of them overheating.(Jungle sets - no air con and no extracts to keep the smoke in). [Tarzan]

The setting constantly assesses chip temperature while rolling and in idle and controls fan speed to keep the chip at the user determined chip temperature (60 degrees for us- the Red default).

A lot of the time the fans will not even spin up to 25% unlike the old manual settings that used 25% even if it didn't need to.

With the adaptive preview you also do not get the loud idling fan noise on rehearsals etc because the camera is constantly assessing what is needed.

Don't worry that a constantly changing fan speed will mean less consistency and more difficultly notching it out in post.

At 25% and less it is almost as quiet as an Alexa and you will be good unless in tiny room shooting super close up.

If one of your Reds is noisier than the other it points towards one of the 2 fans in that specific camera being broken or full of dirt and not running properly resulting in the other fan having to work harder to keep the temperature at the desired level.

Regarding a cameras temperature reading going 'Amber' on a long take- that will happen but the adaptive fan speed will just increase gradually to keep it from overheating- that is EXACTLY the difference between the adaptive setting and the old manual settings where if a camera became too hot it would kick in the fan at maximum speed.

The chips are so happy running hot that there is actually a heater built into the cameras to keep them up to temperature when shooting in cold climates.

What the chips do not like is to be constantly changing temperature.

They like to have a target temperature that is achievable for working conditions set, the black balance set for that chip temperature and then the adaptive preview quiet settings 'job' is to keep the temperature within the correct parameters for the specified chip setting.

The adaptive preview quiet is constantly assessing and reacting to stop overheating happening.

Things should be fine but I would be interested to know what temp the chip temp is set to?

It is on the same menu screen as the fan speed.

Remember your ammunition on this subject is that 65 degrees is the red default setting ie how they come out of the box and the setting after a "restore factory settings" situation.

If your DP is running say 50 degrees in LA if course the fans will have to work too hard.

Again- so long as the black balance is set for the required temp it's all good.

Hope this helps.

Red Dragon Fan.jpg10629865_10152257712046046_557577656218035683_n.jpg

 

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11 hours ago, Olle Sjostrom said:

It's a Fan-tastic opportunity to tell your actors and directors that ADR the is imminent! Actors and directors love that shit, and that just hit the fan..

On a side note.. Working on a series right now where in the beginning the focus puller kept insisting on being right next to the action with his monitor, and the thing had a teradek receiver on it, which had a fan. So in scenes where we'd have no noise issues whatsoever, he'd come marching in with his monitor and make things harder. The guy quit eventually and the new guy sits with the camera

It's good that guy is gone, but new firmware turns off Teredek receivers' fans when camera rolls. There are also cables!!

In terms of Red fans, there are several modes. You just need to check the fan speeds. Not sure if you still can, but you used to be able to set run fan speed in manual mode (25%) and then switch to "adaptive quiet" and would see the value of run speed there. 

They need to keep the temp setting at 65°C I think (default), and cut between takes to keep things happy. Also, fans need to be serviced or replaced if noisy at 25%. I have had 2 cameras at close proximity at 25% on quiet scenes and it's fine. 

Red noise is one of the easiest things to fix in post. But much better to get it right on the day. 

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Remember that Pascal is confronting a Scarlet rather than an Epic/Weapon/etc. Does this lower-cost camera have different ventilation and fans than RED's higher-priced models? I end up working with the standard/expensive RED cameras fairly regularly and these days their fan noise and adaptive-quiet modes seem to work pretty well, even for longish quiet doc interviews.

However, I have only a little experience on jobs with Scarlets... Are they perhaps noisier (ie- as noisy as all REDs a couple years ago)? Is the Scarlet on your job updated with recent firmware?

 

Perhaps ADR stands for "Another Damn RED"

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18 minutes ago, RPSharman said:

It's good that guy is gone, but new firmware turns off Teredek receivers' fans when camera rolls. There are also cables!!

In terms of Red fans, there are several modes. You just need to check the fan speeds. Not sure if you still can, but you used to be able to set run fan speed in manual mode (25%) and then switch to "adaptive quiet" and would see the value of run speed there. 

They need to keep the temp setting at 65°C I think (default), and cut between takes to keep things happy. Also, fans need to be serviced or replaced if noisy at 25%. I have had 2 cameras at close proximity at 25% on quiet scenes and it's fine. 

Red noise is one of the easiest things to fix in post. But much better to get it right on the day. 

Sorry, but have you been involved in fixing Red fan noise in post?  I have, do not be so blithe about how easy it is to deal with a pink noise generator that varies in level as the camera moves in relationship to the mics, and may vary in pitch as well.  Add more cams and more mics, as one cuts or mixes between lav mics and booms, and so on.  NR still has artifacts, and even if skillfully deployed still screws with the natural decay of sounds in a space and messes with lower level sounds (like cloth and prop movement).  I think it is better to fix these kind of issues at the source if we can, or mitigate them as much as possible at that time.

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I agree it shouldn't be left to post when it can be resolved on set. Same with any noise issue. But the post sound teams I have spoken with don't seem to consider Red noise an issue as it's something they're used to dealing with. 

Clearly you need time, money, and expertise to fix problems. If none of those things are available, then that's an entirely different issue. 

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17 hours ago, pvanstry said:

Guys, shooting a series. Director insist on whispering actors... And it's a goddam Red!!!! Fan is killing me!! Anybody knows the setup on a red Scarlett dragon for the fan. Right now it's on adaptive preview and quiet recording... And it ain't quiet on recording!!!!

Thanks

Pascal

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hello, I am curious, is the noise a steady hairdryer sound? Or is it, whir-uh whir-uh?  Like an uneven noise?

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We shot a feature on the Red Epic a while ago, and it was loud! I had to show the camera guys how to use their own equipment to turn that damn fan noise down. It was a nightmare in post and I had to deal with artifacts that the NR gave me. It's a fine line between acceptable and unbearable and I wasted so much time cleaning the dialogue tracks that I didn't have time to experiment with the final mix.

They've now upgraded the fan to a quieter one. Massive difference, as now I can hear a high pitched whining sound that fluctuates through high frequencies and is very difficult not notch out, even with a Q10 EQ. They paid the privilege of £1000 for the "upgrade".

You know there's a problem, when even the actors say it a loud camera.  

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3 hours ago, al mcguire said:

Dear Curious

Insert HAIRDRYER in the Search box that Jeff has so thoughtfully provided for that use

No idea what your attempting to convey here. None. What does this have to do with this gentleman's particular problem? I can't Google someone's particular problem that they are experiencing.

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Dear Clueless

my reply to you

>Insert HAIRDRYER in the Search box that Jeff has so thoughtfully provided for that use<

it is that simple, and you  will answer your own question.

Try it.

 

 

 

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No all problems, that have similar symptoms, are the same problems. If that were possible we would no longer need doctors, one would simply Google their symptoms to discover their medical diagnosis. But we don't do that, or at least I hope people don't. My inqury to this person's particular problem, was in response to their request for help and information. I had asked if the noise was a steady sound or rising and falling in pitch. There has to be some back and forth of information, because a proper diagnosis can't be precisely determined. In another post, I had referenced a broken Red camera, a Dragon. That camera was damaged and had to be repaired. One of the problems this camera had was a fan that was no longer functioning properly. That fan was apparently no longer sitting centered on its bearings, and or, the fan was no longer in balance. The sound was what one would expect to hear from this given scenario. A whirring, uneven sound that you would get as an uneven fan cycles up and down. There were discussions with Red in reference to this problem,  as well as other problems this camera had. I suspect the fan is run by a brushless motor (Google Brushless Motors) and the sensor for that motor was attempting to maintain the assigned speed. And just like a person that attempts to run fast on a broken leg is going to limp and change speeds constantly, so was this motor/fan. The camera had to be replaced. Why was the camera damaged? That would require assigning blame, and I could certainly do that, but that might only start a useless blame game back and forth. I don't chastise strangers on websites. I wouldn't know if someone is elderly, or a child, etc.

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Thanks for all the tips fixing the fan noise. Someone on this forum summed up the RED cameras perfectly:

"It's computers with mounted optics."

I've had noisy RED cameras and noisy Sony F5 cameras on location and asked the camera men to fix it. When not being able to do so, I have moved the shotgun mic closer and made sure the lavs sounded good.

I'm sure it's different on a movie shoot, but for the run and gun TV stuff I work with, it's not my job fixing crappy cameras. I tell the camera man and location producer that the sound will be somewhat compromised and will need some sound editing. Then I focus on the action.

 

Cheers

Fred

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Have you heard about the FanPlate? If not you should have by making a simple search in your favorite browser like "RED FAN solution"...

You could also push your target temp to 75C (this will trigger the heat controller later and not damage your camera)

Yes Scarlet are noisier than Epics.

I always use adaptive mode (only) not the quiet record, so the noise will be constant but for that I always use the FanPlate.

 

Here you can hear all fan solutions for RED in the market

https://vimeo.com/75245337

 

Pat

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Has any one noticed with anamorphic mode that the REDs (specifically a Scarlet-W) are noiser than shooting spherical? As the DoP is arguing the case that the camera needs to "do more" (such as desqueezing the image for monitoring) when in anamorphic mode, thus why the camera is hotter/louder than usual and he can't make it quieter. 

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I did want to try that out! But had no hands on time myself with the camera to figure it out. Plus there were only shooting anamorphic anyway, so would have made no difference over all. 

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It's sad that so many A/C's know nothing about fan, audio and t/code menus in the cameras they look after!

 

mike

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Yes, this is sadly surprisingly common. Too often even the non-audio parts of the menu/settings I know better than an A.C.!

 

Although wasn't the case here, as it is his personal camera so the DoP really knew his camera well. Just hadn't had as much experience shooting it in anamorphic mode. 

 

By a bit of a coincidence I ended up shooting with the same guy and exact same camera again on a different project this week. This time though he was just using Canon glass, not anamorphic lenses. Result: a quiet camera!

 

 

 

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