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Getting gigs and quality Gear


ndg2k005

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Hello everyone! Im from ATL and It's my first time posting here but I've read a lot of everyone's advice over time! I'm new to the film world and coming from corporate production so ease up on me. Lol.

I've been boom operating for a while now on Indie shorts and want to get into location mixing. I've been struggling with my thoughts on what to buy. I was trying to get the 552 sound device used but was advised not to by trew audio. They told me to get the zoom F8 because if anything happens to the 552, I can't get it fixed easily because it's out of date. They also said something about the recorder not being a full recorder like the 633. So when i talk to other mixers, they say when they aren't working, they are lending out there gear for rent and no one would rent a zoom in the field. HE'S RIGHT. I talked to another person that's really big in the industry and he said he wouldn't hire a person with a zoom. So I decided to just let my thoughts go on the device and start focusing on wireless Mics because right now I can't afford a to make the wrong decision. I need what ever that makes money. Also, would you guys trust to buy a mixer on Ebay? And if the price is too good to be true Ya know? I don't know what too good to be true is.

Also, would you guys buy rode wireless Mics for documentary gigs, comercials and interviews? I understand lectrosonic is the standard but I don't have it like that right now. I really likely the rode wireless and didn't hear a big difference than the sennheiser G3 sound wise(on the net, not in person) thanks guys!

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Hi,

 

There a quite a few guys on here using the F8 on eng/doco gigs. The production co I occasionally work for used one on a recent production. Prevoiously they used a freelancer with Zaxom or SD633. The recorder seemed fine (iso audio ok)  but they had some problems with operator error and TC issues.😆 Check out the facebook f8 group. Useful stuff there. Look, the zoom is very very low cost purchase. Its not got the cachet of Zax or SD but it s a lot for less. 

I ve bought 10s of thousands of dollars of kit off Ebay in the past 5 years. I ve had luck.....good and bad. Latest buy has been a bit of a nightmare so it's a bit of a lottery. 

I use the Senny G2/G3 on camera gigs that I do in the UK. They are fine for that and for camera hops. Rodelink I never used so can t comment. My Microns sound better than the Sennys though. I use them on better paid jobs. 

I m no expert by any means but thats my 2c worth. 

 

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I definitely would't buy a new 552 right now, but used ones can be had really inexpensively, and it is still an awesome, rock-solid unit. I actually bought a used one quite recently myself (from eBay) and its excellent. You have to recognize that it is what it is though. Its a 5 channel mixer and stereo recorder. If you expect more from it you will be disappointed. There is nothing lacking in sound quality and reliability though.

You have to evaluate what your specific needs are. If you need a mixer and sometimes need to make a backup recording, the 552 will be awesome. If you need the ability to record more than 2 discreet channels, the 552 is not for you.

-Mike 

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I have a hard time believing that you couldn't get a 552 fixed. FWIW, when I sent several 442s to sound devices for a reasonably priced complete overhaul those units where way more out of date (over 10 years old at that time). The 552 is a great machine and you can upgrade your rig to include a small recorder for dual system shoots where Isos  are needed.

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It really depends what kind of jobs you are looking for...

for example, if you only do ENG and go straight to camera, any decent mixer will be perfectly fine. If you want to do feature film work (even indy) you probably want multi channel two system sound these days.

I'd say rent gear until you know what you need, gives you a chance to work with different gear and see what you like and buy accordingly.

chris

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The 552 is still being made, and will likely be repairable by Sound Devices for years. It is a very good mixer, but it's recording capability is not its strong suit.    I find it hard to believe anyone at Trew would give you that advice to stay away from it based on repairability.  The Zoom probably is their recommendation for beginner "bang for the buck" though- I understand how that advice could happen...the Zoom packs a lot of features into an inexpensive package.  It's a tough choice though... the Zoom name is still associated firmly with an H2 taped to a painters pole as a beginner sound recorder...  We'll see how (and if) that changes over the next couple of years.

There's  long Zoom thread on this site about the F8 - I'd read through that and then get your hands on both devices (552 and F8) in the store and play around with them. 

Cheers,

Brent Calkin

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If only the zoom F8 was available when I was starting out.. I have never used one but I feel its a much more capable machine than the 552. What gets you jobs are good results not brand names. My advice is to get the equipment that allows you to get the most bang for your buck. Most producers that will hire you probably won't even ask what brand of equipment you have. As long as you can deliver what they want and expect. I also like the Roland R88 as a starter deal. And I know very little about rode lavs, but whatever works tho, right?

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I've not used the F8 but i had a look. It's pretty cool in a lot of ways not least its size and weight. Quite useable for dslr shoots, some indi production with a scratch track sent to camera on a wireless, FX etc but if your doing ENG type shoots, with primary sound sent to camera, you'll need a mixer to camera cable (loom) with a return monitor, which you can do with F8 but not without adding a box or loosing an i/p channel. And if you doing sound from a cart or similar then using it with a mixer is not a problem.

If your clients include people who shoot ENG style (sound to camera) I'd say something like a 633 is a no brainer. Because you can record, mix and send to camera (with return monitor). Re radio mics, getting cheapish is not the end of world when you start out if you get decent capsules and you hire better when the job demands (more channels/range/reliability etc). 

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Whoever told you that you can't have a 552 repaired is wrong.  Sound Devices still makes and sells the 552 NEW, and in any case they will service just about anything they've ever made.   (Last year they fixed my original model MixPre from nearly 20 years ago.)   On the JWsound and the Zoom F8 Facebook pages I see lots of folks doing real jobs with the F8.  The takeaway here: you need to do some research of your own.  The Sound Devices people are just a phone call away during business hours--they are very helpful and will answer any questions you have about any of their products.  I've called them from the set, in the heat of things, and had them talk me thru issues that would have otherwise shut us down.  The Zoom people read this board as well as the F8 FB page, and there is a big user group to ask questions of.  It's true you have to match gear you buy to your budget and to the work you are doing now, but leave your self room to grow if you can.  To the guy who says he'd never hire someone who uses an F8, well, in over 40 years of doing this work I've had someone make a deal about what recorder I was using exactly once, and that was back in the Nagra days.  There is nothing wrong with an F8 (or a 552) if it suits the job at hand and you know how to drive it well.

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I think whether or not a 552 can still repaired is not the main concern in this specific case...

If I needed a 5channel mixer with 2channel backup recording I would largely prefer a used 552 over an F8 even if it wasn't possible to get it repaired (because chances that it fails are slim and a replacement can be bought for not too much money if I'm really unlucky)

If i needed a multitrack recorder I would largely prefer a F8 over a 552 even it's not as good a brand name (because, obviously I can't record multitrack on a 552)

If i needed both, I'd probably save up for a 633 or used 644

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Ndg you also mentioned hiring out kit when not using it. I've only 'dry hired' my kit to friends but if dry hiring kit to clients on a regular basis I think there are some other things to consider aside from the 'Industry Standard' kit as expected by client , eg:

~ Repairs.

~ Spares (of both big ticket items and sundries like cables etc).

~ Insurance.

I think the case could be made for any of the kit options mentioned above for a business model which includes dry hire but I think the set-up would be different. Eg. if based around an F8 I would be tempted to own 2 - as they are cheap enough to do so and this would get you round the lighter build quality and the less 'industrial' support for the product. The advantage of going with something like an SD product is it'll will be easy to cross hire the hardware, accessories (eg CL12) and sundries (eg. cable looms etc) for it when you need and resale will be easier I think. BTW which ever option you go with be prepared to spend some money on cables.

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I use all Zaxcom. I don't own any Sound Devices products. But I would rather have a used 552 than a brand new F8. I know, I know, one is stereo and the other has whatever it has. But, I would rather have a half dozen U.S. shrimp sautéed for dinner, than have 2 pounds frozen in China 2 months ago. I know, I know, terrible analogy, but. I would really like some sautéed shrimp right now. In New Orleans. Or anything from Mandinas on Canal street.

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Actually, Martin, that may be a pretty good analogy.

As to the original post...  It sounds to me like the Trew salesperson was trying to sway you into buying a new item over shopping used.  Either that, or maybe they don't know much about the vendors that serve our industry.  Knowing that Glen Trew typically staffs with knowledgeable people, it seems the former is most likely.

Considering that Sound Devices is well known for their service of even discontinued products, and the fact that this is still a current mixer, telling you that a used 552 would not get fixed easily because it's out of date is doubly misleading.  My guess is that Glen wouldn't be totally pleased with that sales approach.

Given that you've mentioned there are a number of mixers in your area who aren't working a lot and therefore rent their gear out, I think you've found a good path forward.  That being to avoid the expense of buying equipment when you're not sure what you're going to need.  Instead, rent the gear from those other mixers and as you develop your clientele, you'll learn what your particular needs are.

One axiom to keep in mind is:  "If you don't know your needs clearly enough to know what to buy, you're not really ready to buy."

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Rick Reineke said:

If you know what your doing, the only 'real' problem in using an F8 would be feeding a mix to a 'pro' camera, as the main mix outputs are -10dB (why not +4, I don't know) so levels would be low, directly feeding a mix to +4dB device.

I just don't know. More food analogies. I just think getting a pro to use an f8, is like asking a chef (or me) to cook on an electric stove. Yuck. But, maybe asking a very amateur cook to cook on electric, maybe they don't cook any worse at that level. As far as renting someone's equipment from them, I use Nomad. If you hand an amateur, a Nomad and an F8, my bet is they probably have a better final product with F8. I think the nomad is about perfect, but it isn't for someone that wakes up and decides to be a mixer today. More analogy, if you hand a beginning pilot (or me) a Cessna 172 or give them a choice of using a VTOL F35 fighter jet, chances are great they would have better luck with the more simple and easy choice Cessna. If the zombies come, I'm gettin in the Cessna. Course I guess I could shoot missiles at em while sitting on the ground, then eject out, it does have the aptly named Martin-Baker zero zero ejection seat. Course, I might wind up ejecting into a zombie herd. Ok ok, I stick with the Cessna. See?

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If the OP needs more than a stereo mix recording then the F8 is a cheap way to go, no matter what shrimp etc is desired--clients may not spec specific recorders to be used but they often spec that they want isos.  I see several F8 users using a 552 as a front end for the F8.  Heavy in the bag but would sound good.  The 552 sounds great but has some serious shortcomings as a TC recorder, which having the F8 also would address. 

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when i got the chance to jump in to location sound jobs last year i had to get the best kit with the limited budget i had at the time. i went with the zoom F8, two wired COS11, and my existing schoeps cmc41. THAT'S IT (besides a ton of tiny accessories). i've added a CMIT 5U, but after like 15 gigs the set has well payed for itself already. i haven't had any issues besides a couple operator related bungles, but nothing job killing. i've done mostly 2-4 people interviews, a little ENG, and some on-cam shoots and my setup has been awesome. however, with all the crazy needs and expectations for film shoots you might want to look at the other more expensive recorders/mixers since they are just expected, and it seems by this thread and others i have read seeing the zoom on set would make peoples' heads explode with fear. 

however, i think in most cases, people want to hire you because of YOU and your experience. what's in your bag is of second importance. :)

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6 hours ago, MartinTheMixer said:

But I would rather have a used 552 than a brand new F8.

So if a client would ask you to record 3 wireless and 1 boom and a basic mono mix, and you could only choose between the 552 and the F8, you'd take the 552?

I know I wouldn't (and that's coming from a 633 user). Sure the F8 will be a bit inconvenient, but it will allow me to get the job done, while the 552 doesn't, no matter the skill set.

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4 hours ago, Rick Reineke said:

If you know what your doing, the only 'real' problem in using an F8 would be feeding a mix to a 'pro' camera, as the main mix outputs are -10dB (why not +4, I don't know) so levels would be low, directly feeding a mix to +4dB device.

The 552's outputs (as well as 6XX series) aren't "true" +4dBu either. With a digital reference of -20dBFS and a maximum outputlevel of +20dBu it's more of a 0 dBu analog reference level. Why not +4, I don't know:mellow:

Better check the analog I/O of that pro camera, it should handle +24dBu but....

I'm not a big fan of this trend, IMO the maximum output level should be +24dBu but that'd require larger power rails.

 

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2 hours ago, chrismedr said:

So if a client would ask you to record 3 wireless and 1 boom and a basic mono mix, and you could only choose between the 552 and the F8, you'd take the 552?

I know I wouldn't (and that's coming from a 633 user). Sure the F8 will be a bit inconvenient, but it will allow me to get the job done, while the 552 doesn't, no matter the skill set.

Hello,  I am saying, probably, that I would just only take jobs the 552 would handle. It might sound like I am being a snob, but ya know that dream people have where they show up to high school and realize they forgot to wear pants and everyone is laughing at them? If I owned an F8, I would be afraid to show up with it, because they would be like "Hey, go get the gaffers, they gotta see this, he's got a zoom." "Oh, and tell warddrobe, they gotta see it too". And then, in that dream, the crafty, who has an Indian accent, says, "zoom, yes, I have one in the car, if you need a spare". Again, the chef doesn't take jobs cooking on an electric stove. 

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If I had a Zoom F8 and was worried about people's reaction to the brand, I'd just tape over the name (which you can't really see if it's in a bag anyway). Then it will just look like another mysterious piece of professional audio equipment.

If I had concerns about the ergonomic oh-crap-things-are-getting-crazy design of the Zoom (little knobs, few buttons, menus), I'd consider putting a Sound Devices 442 or 302 mixer in front of it (both widely available used for good prices). And then I'd also have great preamps, limiter, metering, on-the-run usability, etc (I say this not knowing first-hand how the F8 compares on these features). 

If I didn't have money for both a 442 or 302 mixer and a F8 and I was likely to work on simpler two-track and/or to-camera gigs for a while, I might consider a 302 mixer and a smaller two-track flash recorder (say, a Tascam or Marantz recorder).

If I had more money to spend, I'd look at Sound Devices and Zaxcom mixer/recorders.

But I'd be likely to buy a good mixer early in my career (in fact I did, I think on the advice of smart guys). IME, I can figure out new mics and wireless fairly quickly. But a mixer plays such a big role in getting a good signal out to where it's going (audio recorder or camera), and takes a while to master in a "there are no lights, but I'm still fine" kind of way, that's where I'd spend my money first. And I'd buy stuff that I'd still have use and need for when I upgraded. 

So if you're on a budget, perhaps:

Mixer first.

Inexpensive two-track recorder second.

Decent boom pole and mic third.

Two wireless systems fourth. I'd probably go for Sennheiser G3...then when you upgrade to better systems, you'll have those for hops, backup, comtek-like use, or something. They won't just sit around.

Multitrack mixer/recorder fifth.

When you need more stuff, rent and make sure the production pays the rental cost.

But that just depends on what sort of work and how many channels you expect to be doing. 

Let us know what you decide to do!

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Apples and oranges and shrimp...

SD 552: Historically Bridged the gap/ filled the void of dedicated 3-6 channel portable audio mixer/ routers vs extremely expensive all in one mixer multi-track recorders (Cantar, 788T, Deva/ Fusion, Fostex PD-6, HHB PDR2000 etc)

SD 552 allowed Doco/Eng/Reality types, 5 audio channels, with an integrated TC stamped BWF stereo recording.  As opposed to using a satellite primary/ back up: Fostex, Marantz, Tascam, Sony, Edirol 16-24bit/48kHz capable audio recording device.

The output flexibility exceeded most competitors of its class in its day. 5 direct outs pre or post with 3 mix outputs. Pretty much decimating the F8's output functionality, not to mention line P48V when the din of aircraft/ live shows would blow your condenser mics to smithereens.

I haven't used an F8 and I'm sure it's great as a recorder, but my instinct is just that, multitrack recorder, period. Ham fisted mixing at best, which brings me to the question? Is this about TRACKING, MIXING or BOTH? 'Cause in my estimation the F8 needs a proper mixer on the front end, period. (My fatty fat sweaty fingers on the run? Just can't see it).

And finally, Not sayin', just saying',  If you're a mixer worth your salt,  2 empty tracks should bloody well suffice (not that any sane sound recordist/ mixer would purposely choose to limit their available track count...but when it's tits up and that's all you got, it's about the skills). 

I'll now take my comments off the air and return to drywalling...

 

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54 minutes ago, Jim Feeley said:

If I had a Zoom F8 and was worried about people's reaction to the brand, I'd just tape over the name (which you can't really see if it's in a bag anyway). Then it will just look like another mysterious piece of professional audio equipment.

If I had concerns about the ergonomic oh-crap-things-are-getting-crazy design of the Zoom (little knobs, few buttons, menus), I'd consider putting a Sound Devices 442 or 302 mixer in front of it. And then I'd also have great preamps, limiter, metering, on-the-run usability, etc (I say this not knowing first-hand how the F8 compares on these features). 

If I didn't have time for a 442 or 302 mixer and a F8 and I was likely to work on simpler two-track and/or to-camera gigs for a while, I might consider a 302 mixer and a smaller two-track flash recorder (say, a Tascam or Marantz recorder).

If I had more money to spend, I'd look at Sound Devices and Zaxcom mixer/recorders.

But I'd be likely to buy a good mixer early in my career (in fact I did, I think on the advice of smart guys). IME, I can figure out new mics and wireless fairly quickly. But a mixer plays such a big role in getting a good signal out to where it's going (audio recorder or camera), and takes a while to master in a "there are no lights, but I'm still fine" kind of way, that's where I'd spend my money first. And I'd buy stuff that I'd still have use and need for when I upgraded. 

So if you're on a budget, perhaps:

Mixer first.

Inexpensive two-track recorder second.

Decent boom pole and mic third.

Two wireless systems fourth. I'd probably go for Sennheiser G3...then when you upgrade to better systems, you'll have those for hops, backup, comtek-like use, or something. They won't just sit around.

Multitrack mixer/recorder fifth.

When you need more stuff, rent and make sure the production pays the rental cost.

But that just depends on what sort of work and how many channels you expect to be doing. 

Let us know what you decide to do!

Yes, to everything Jim said.

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I mean this to be informative and to offer a different perspective....

 

Really sorry for its length, but what the heck.

 In some strange way,  I cant help but think that all this talk about the "cheap way to go" simply furthers the race to the bottom situation...  Doing jobs with bare bones, minimalist, lower end packages and systems...  I dislike the whole ball of wax.... why, because the people doing this are in competition with others who actually have spent the funds, begged, borrowed or stolen ....  You can argue the point, but... we all TRY to do the big gigs all the time... however, sometimes the phone rings for the little gigs.... and I show up with all the proper gear and try to come to a reasonable agreement on price...   Now,  why should the Producer and the show have to have someone with a seriously lesser mixer/recorder, mics, wireless and such at the same price point...?  They should get some decent gear.. even at lower rates. They don't deserve it, but that's what you should deliver as best you can. So rent what you can and don't buy the cheaper gear.

  When I started it was all Nagras...   and... if I went out to do a job, I rented or borrowed all the proper gear and went without the gear income to both do the job right and learn on the proper gear in the first place...  I gave that income away to be properly prepared.... And, to look like I knew what I was doing...  Even though there were really no other gear choices..  Even if there were, I would of wanted to appear as deserving of the job and position I was placed in... I knew it was only a while until I could slowly build the right kit and continue to move forward... 

I just don't know about the flood of folks plowing into this profession with zoom recorders and other gear posturing as ...well ...  like equipped and prepared persons...

If you are going to get involved and compete with the rest of us... do it once, do it correctly... do it smart... build a kit and your experience and have at it....  

If you plan, buy right... take your time... learn... and then compete... you will never have to worry about showing up with a Zoom, a Cheesy mic...  and the paranoia some may feel.  DO NOT BE FOOLED THOUGH, Producers DO KNOW...  They look at my gear and discuss it with me often...if they don't, the camera guys and others do.. you don't want the label of someone other than the best prepared person they could have there that day...  At least do all you can to bring the most to the table to show your worth... and benefit from working with the better level of gear.

Forget about making money when you start....This is a hard way to make a PROPER living. Unless of course you are living with your parents or have a very small footprint... As I said, spend some  or most of your income on renting the gear, and buying it...the good stuff  to do your job. Make your money after quite some time of doing this and slowly buying your first package... slowly and wisely!!!

People always ask... how did you get started... I say..." I ate Top Ramen and eggs for two years "  I spent all my money on gear....

 

Here's your analogy.... you drive for UBER Black.... a client calls and you show up in a perfectly functioning black KIA Soul...   Gets the job done, but not what they were probably expecting....  Either it's a professional job or not.... If it is... they want someone with the skills and gear... while providing good recordings... If they sniff out the cheese , it may stick with them...LOL Many folks flying in to do small jobs are many times very talented knowledgeable people.. They know "normal".

Buying gear, and renting it out to others to me is a very strange way to start out and build and develop your business or profession. I feel you buy your gear...store it properly, Never drop any of it, use it carefully and trust in it as you depend on it.. always doing your best to build your package.  Renting to others, some you may not know well, can quickly break those "rules".  You may be on the job one day and gear that was dropped or subjected to who knows what may now leave you in a situation. All for a few rental bucks.. Not worth it.

   There are exceptions to this, but I have never rented or lent gear to anybody I did not know VERY well, and those times were few. There are rental shops...I am just not one of them..

My.02

Good luck...

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