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More stuff on the CEDAR DNS 2


Ty Ford

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Hmm. this is actually turning into a rate discussion. Interesting. It's water over the dam, but were there similar concerns when smart slates and comteks were forced down the throats of the sound department? 


I don't know, but Comteks and Smartslates didn't take away work from post production people and move it to the sound department. In both cases probably without a change in their respective rates
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Of course, following this rates issues, we could also argue that using any mic above a certain price threshold is giving it away for free. I won't get more rental, because I am using a DPA 4017, rather than an NTG3. Likewise I won't get more for using a Cantar instead of a 788.
It's not all about the rates. You bring the tools t get the job done. I include 6 wireless in my package and if the production needs more, I'll charge extra. Same with Comteks. Anything more than 4 is extra.
For me the issue is that NR cannot be done properly on set. As mentioned before, this needs to be done in a proper listening environment not on set. And let's not forget that by adding safety tracks without the NR, now post needs to check those, too, and possibly redo it anyway.


The SuperCMIT is perhaps an exception. With its second capsules it can do things which no other NR can achieve, while leaving the wanted signal as complete as possible.

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Constantin

You GIVE AWAY 6 radios... wow.... wow...   breaks my heart to hear that..  but your in a different market... so who knows..  That is a LOT of lost revenue... unless the pkg. is $1200 a day..LOL

 

Now if they can work the unit  into the software update for the 688, well awesome... heck, if they could do it with Dan Dugans auto mix, why not.... (which works really well by the way) but other factors I am sure are involved... it would be great to pick which channels get the treatment... without the unit itself or the cables and power... just hoping... you never know... ;)

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Constantin

You GIVE AWAY 6 radios... wow.... wow...   breaks my heart to hear that..  but your in a different market... so who knows..  That is a LOT of lost revenue... unless the pkg. is $1200 a day..LOL


Well, it's not. But I am in a different market. However, I use the 6 radios to angle for a higher than usual rental per day. If they won't do it, I'll accept their lower rate, but woth only 5 or 4 radios, depending. It's a bit of a reverse way to negotiate, but more often than not, they'll accept my higher rate.
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Can the DNS2 reduce electronic noise?    No.

I don't think it's so expensive (2200gdp ex), but I wouldn't give it away - how much do you rent an RM channel for? At the end of the day, if the recorders have the enough tracks and production do pay a rate for a DNS2 (like the cost of 1 or 2 RM channels) and it works for their picture workflow, prior to proper audio post or for smaller budget stuff (where the objective maybe to deliver more intelligible dialogue in challenging situations), isn't it their business to decide?

Can a DNS2 be used in post production? Is there any advantage in doing so over something like RX-5 and the rest? Eg. a faster easier output.

How do the PSMs who set up the DNS2 for a multi mic mix (as opposed to isos into a DNS8) manage the different responses to the BG noise from the various mics. Eg. Keep it in 'learn' mode during the take/broadcast for fading different sources? Do you open all the faders up before, to see just how much BG it can handle and work from there?   Not good for a mix I've been told.

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15 hours ago, Ty Ford said:

Hmm. this is actually turning into a rate discussion. Interesting. It's water over the dam, but were there similar concerns when smart slates and comteks were forced down the throats of the sound department? 

Oh my yes.  When I started in this biz slates were entirely a camera dept thing.  Comtek type monitoring on the scale seen on large commercials was unknown--one heard the actors "acoustically" or not at all--any sort of radio-monitoring set up would have been a bespoke setup for that job, usually using talent wireless type gear.  (The first actual Comteks in my area were rented out by video equipment companies, for a lot of $.)  Scripty and maybe the director usually had headphones hard wired to the mixer.  The normal sound recording config was a single mono track, if a another track was needed a 2nd Nagra was rented (stereo Nagras were still rare in filmmaking).  There was no video assist (Kubrick and Jerry Lewis aside)--those people with the rank and influence to successfully demand to see a shot's framing took turns looking through the camera eyepiece.   When video assist first started it was ultra-low-rez, b/w, and a very expensive add-on that only worked on a few cameras.   Wireless mics were not assumed to be part of anyone's standard package, and many if not most soundies didn't own them, or maybe had just one or two--they were rented for the bigger jobs and certainly paid extra for if used.  There were only a handful of walkies on the set, mostly used by production and transpo, they were too expensive (and heavy) for every crew member to have one.  I worked for the first prod co to offer telecine-dailies in the SF area, and they supplied the external (Coherent Communciations) TC generator for a Nagra IV-S and a "TC  slate" that was nothing more than a TC numeric display with a clapper hard wired to the TC generator, which they rented out for more than my whole package went for at that time.  (That Coherent TC generator should have been gold-plated).  Since that setup was run by the sound dept, when Denecke-type slates came in (with stable jammable TC generators) the sound dept was expected to provide them. 

So we've slipped pretty far down the slope, so to speak....

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22 hours ago, Constantin said:

It's not all about the rates. You bring the tools t get the job done. I include 6 wireless in my package and if the production needs more, I'll charge extra. Same with Comteks. Anything more than 4 is extra.

Anymore than two wireless is a bump for me. Comteks are always a bump, so, than it really does have to do with rate, no? Not giving you any grief, but just drawing another data point so we can discuss.

 

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I was fortunate to be invited to Ty's to take a listen to and screw around with the Cedar DNS 2.

My impression of the device is that there's a place for it on location in certain very limited circumstances. There's a fair amount of high dollar really short turn-around work in the Midatlantic region, mostly corporate work having to do with big events, political campaigns and the like. I've a bunch of "picture under" recording for tv and radio spots in the President's holding room at appearances and the portable switchboard is loud and usually close by. It also can't be buried under blankets for long because it runs hot. The Cedar would have helped a bunch since the turnaround on some of these pieces is short and I would have had no problem charging a good rate for it. While I don't do news pieces, I know there are also a lot of live shot spots in DC that might benefit from the Cedar, like the room with the open window in the Hay Adams across the park from the White House that's directly above  the end of a bus line or the rotunda in the Canon Senate Office Building.

For jobs with a normal postproduction schedule with complete post mixing resources there are probably some circumstances where the Cedar might prove useful, perhaps a location that's so loud that it's hard to make a useful guide track. But generally I think decisions like how hard to twist the knobs on the DNS 2 are best made while sitting in a comfortable chair in an air conditioned room listening to an excellent set of monitors.

The main impression I came away with is that the DNS 2 requires an incredibly light touch by somebody who's very familiar with the box because it's easy to overdo it and the point where that happens is hard to discern when monitoring via headset in the midst of what you're trying to compensate for. When overused, there's artifact that isn't pleasant and even in the artifact-free zone it's possible to take too much away, creating an unnatural soundscape.

I hope one will be available for hire in my market but I won't be running out to get one myself anytime soon.

Best regards,

Jim

 

PS - It was pretty swell to assess to DNS 2 at Ty's place because we could do a recording outside or in Ty's high ceilinged living room and then play back the recordings down in his studio over his nice sounding speakers in his nice sounding editing room mere minutes later.

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