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Lectro PDR, not Lectro PMR

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Does anyone know what the split gain mode (384khz) listed in the manual is? 
I can guess it may be a method of recording two different levels at once to avoid overages, but I don't understand why this would result in a different sample rate...

It doesn't. It's kb/s not khz.

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2 hours ago, Constantin said:

It doesn't. It's kb/s not khz.

Thanks Constantin that makes sense.  The manual does say "recording modes/bitrate" but theres a typo that shows the units as kHz.

Looks like a very useful little box.

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An important note about the dual track setting is thar it disables the limiter. So your choice is -15dB safety track but no limiter or mono track with limiter (which can handle peaks 30dB above "0" if I'm reading the manual right)

 

I think I'd rather have the limiter but it's a nice option.

 

Dual mode halves the record time you get out of your SD card as well. 

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Thanks Constantin that makes sense.  The manual does say "recording modes/bitrate" but theres a typo that shows the units as kHz.

Looks like a very useful little box.

They must have corrected that very quickly, because it's not in the manual I'm looking at.

Not sure, to be honest, why they even list bitrate (or datarate), but it's their first recorder, so why not?

An important note about the dual track setting is thar it disables the limiter.

That's good to know indeed. For me, the whole point of having the split gain option is precisely the avoidance of the limiter, so it makes sense to disable. Although I agree that it would still be nice to have it on thr 2nd track. Just in case

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23 hours ago, soundtrane said:

OK, in the absence of my good friend Senator.... 

Can it do Stereo? 

Can it do 5.1 surround? 

Can it sent 48V Phantom to mics? 

heh... 

Swap out '5.1' for 'remote control' and you describe a 'perfect' product (sadly not available on the market). And of course it is possible to put all these things into 1 small box as such things already exist - albeit with a proprietary digital transmitter and over twice the cost. And in no way to be down on another great looking Lectro product but an IP rating would have been useful given how Tx don't work when submerged or extremely wet - would this not have built on the legacy of producing the finest waterproof TX available? 

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23 hours ago, efksound said:

So where is the difference ? 

dr-10ch_p_user.jpg

 

Not wishing to hijack Lectro's awesome announcement, this was replaced in the US with the DR-10L:

dr-10l_p_with_mic.jpg

 

 

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3 hours ago, LarryF said:

-18 db Just a little niggle. 3 bits = 8x = 18 db

Larry, one more question about the split gain mode if I may...
the specs say:

Quote
Signal To Noise Ratio HD mono mode: 105 dB A-weighted;
Split gain mode: 80 dB A-weighted

which looks like you'd give up 25db to be able to record a backup track 18db lower. I probably confuse somethings here, but wouldn't it be easier to just record the mono mode 18db too low and then boost the signal 18db in post which theoretically would still have 7db better SNR then the split mode? As said I likely have a thinking error here since SNR numbers are not my strong side.

On the bigger picture, love the functionality and form factor and I'm sure they will sound great!

Chris

 

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48 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

Larry, one more question about the split gain mode if I may...
the specs say:

which looks like you'd give up 25db to be able to record a backup track 18db lower. I probably confuse somethings here, but wouldn't it be easier to just record the mono mode 18db too low and then boost the signal 18db in post which theoretically would still have 7db better SNR then the split mode? As said I likely have a thinking error here since SNR numbers are not my strong side.

On the bigger picture, love the functionality and form factor and I'm sure they will sound great!

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

I saw the same discrepancy amd I'm kinda....:huh: I can't get to anybody for an explanation till Tuesday as I'm stuck in the airport in Dallas, but I'll get one.

Sharp eyes, by the way.

Best, LEF

 

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which looks like you'd give up 25db to be able to record a backup track 18db lower. I probably confuse somethings here, but wouldn't it be easier to just record the mono mode 18db too low and then boost the signal 18db in post which theoretically would still have 7db better SNR then the split mode?

It might be easier, but it also wouldn't help much. If you brought everything down by 18dB, you are also bringing everything closer to the system noise, which you will bring back up by boosting the later.
The idea with the split gain is, that you gain stage for the quiet or normal parts of the dialogue and then have the second track exclusively for the loud parts. Thereby you effectively have a higher dynamic range than with just one (Mono HD) track.

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I agree with Constantin, and we are looking at that spec again to more properly represent the dynamic range of the split gain mode. It should be well over 100 dB and probably closer to 110. We'll have a solid figure for you as soon as we can thoroughly test it to verify.

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I guess the 105 dB adds the limiter into the calculaiton. If the limiter is disabled with the safety track option, the 80 dB in split gain mode make sense.

I am really sorry to already own three of the Tascams, because they are quite limited in their preamp capabilities and I wished to have 1 or 2 Lectro units in place.

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1 hour ago, Constantin said:


It might be easier, but it also wouldn't help much. If you brought everything down by 18dB, you are also bringing everything closer to the system noise, which you will bring back up by boosting the later.
The idea with the split gain is, that you gain stage for the quiet or normal parts of the dialogue and then have the second track exclusively for the loud parts. Thereby you effectively have a higher dynamic range than with just one (Mono HD) track.

Well, I didn't mean to suggest that it was the better way to keep everything down. I was just wondering what is the benefit (apart from maybe less confusion for the editor).

An example to make my question clearer:
Let's say I have a scene where one one line is shouted and one is a quiet whisper, like I have a 60db difference (extreme to make the point).

So in split mode, I set the levels that the loud part is just below clipping on the backup track and has a SNR of 80dB. which means my whisper will be recorded at -42db on the main track with a SNR of 38dB (80 - 42)

In mono mode, I would set my levels so that the shout would be just below clipping (if I don't want to use the limiters), which means it would be recorded with a SNR of 105dB. The whisper would then be be 60dB down, which if my math makes sense would result in a SNR of 45dB (105-60).

so in mono mode the shout would have a benefit of +25dB and the whisper of +7dB (and if split mode disables the limiter the difference would be likely even grater in most cases).

maybe I'm misreading the specs and the 80dB SNR in split mode counts only on the reduced track (and the main track still keeps 105db), then it would only be a difference of the 7dB mentioned above but even then it wouldn't really give me more signal on the whisper and less on the shouting (or would it?).

Chris

Edit: just seen the replies by Larry and Karl so my confusion is probably short lived : )

 

 

 

Edited by chrismedr
edit for clarification

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Chris, we appreciate your detailed look at this, and your math! It is the latter paragraph I want to center on. The 80 dB spec is for the low sensitivity channel. So the "real" dynamic range for Split Mode would be from the noise floor of the low gain channel to the clipping point of the high gain channel. Again, we'll have real figures for you shortly.

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1 minute ago, karlw said:

Chris, we appreciate your detailed look at this, and your math! It is the latter paragraph I want to center on. The 80 dB spec is for the low sensitivity channel. So the "real" dynamic range for Split Mode would be from the noise floor of the low gain channel to the clipping point of the high gain channel. Again, we'll have real figures for you shortly.

ah, yes that makes more sense...

might be worth to clarify that in the spec sheet (like: in split mode: main track SNR = 105dB, backup track SNR = XXdB).

If the backup track measures 90+dB SNR or so, it all works out, even with my dodgy math ; )

Thanks for taking the time to jump in

Chris

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I got to play with one yesterday and I have two main concerns. One is nit-picky, the other is deal or no deal. 

First: batteries. Like many others, I like to keep the diversity in the kinds of batteries I need to a minimum. I know it affects the size of the machine, but I'd rather have it a little bigger if it meant taking an AA battery instead of an AAA. 

Second: the battery door. I am very concerned with the build quality of the locking mechanism (plastic and very fragile), as well as the thin wire hinge. I'd expect this to be robust like the battery door of an SM, not something one could break with their thumb. 

Those are my two cents. Otherwise it looks great and I'd love having a few in my kit, but that battery door is a deal breaker for me. I foresee these spending more time in servicing than in the field. 

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41 minutes ago, JonG said:

First: batteries. Like many others, I like to keep the diversity in the kinds of batteries I need to a minimum. I know it affects the size of the machine, but I'd rather have it a little bigger if it meant taking an AA battery instead of an AAA. 

I'm in the other camp on this one - I'd much rather have a smaller unit and the "non-standard" battery.
I usually have some AAA with me anyway, but even if I didn't I'd be glad to carry a couple of extra AAA enloop and a pack of lithium as a backup. they are so light and hardly take up any space.  

The battery door sounds a bit worrying, I would hope that the Lectro engineers opened and closed that door some thousand times to make sure it holds up though.

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Soooo... Who's making the 1/8" locking line level to TA5 jumper cables to go into an SM? Future version with menu option for 1/8" connector to be a straight loop through, or is that getting a bit "iffy"? I am assuming the 1/8" output is currently after limiters and such.

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Jon, if the unit you saw was Kelly Fair's demo unit, this was not the final hardware design for the production units. The battery door was beefed up already. Of course time will tell (as it always does) if the design is robust or not.

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50 minutes ago, rodpaul said:

SSM battery door looks a bit flimsy as well, but has worked fine. AAAs OK with me as I have other devices that need them. Size matters.

That SSM door is a special stainless steel that  is "soft" and can be formed easily before it is heat treated. After heat treating, it is spring steel hard.
Best,
Larry F

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Re: The PDR door.
The latches are plastic but the external door, hinges and pivot points are all metal. The hinge pin is the full length of the door. The door can be replaced by driving (drifting) the old hinge pin part way out with a new one, grabbing the old rod with needle nose pliers, pulling it out, lining up the new door and pushing (drifting) the new pin into place. Very similar to the SSM hinge pin, with which we have had no problems. The unit has been dropped many times (repeat: many times) with the door both open and closed with no failures. We feel it is reliable.

As the traveling door-to-door door salesman said "We stand behind every door".

With apologies to Walt Kelly,
Larry F

Re: PDR battery life
The battery life of that AAA battery can be greatly extended by using the dweedle tones to "Stop" the recorder. Current drain is then very low in the same way as on our dweedle tone controlled transmitters when put into their sleep mode.
Best,
Larry F

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Really nice unit! In a joyful moment, discussion here up north led to some happy willing-to-try campers and questions like: while at it, why not two tracks and why no TC out from that lemo so we could use it as a TC box too. Hard love. Meanwhile, let's wait and see what happens with the exchange rate ... :) 

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