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sound devices 633 inputs 4-6

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Sounds better when you're using it or after it's been through post?

When I'm using it. And subsequently in post, too. Maybe you want to assign this to the headphone amp, and maybe that's right, but I still believe the 788T sounds better when listening to it without the hp amp

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1 minute ago, Constantin said:


When I'm using it. And subsequently in post, too. Maybe you want to assign this to the headphone amp, and maybe that's right, but I still believe the 788T sounds better when listening to it without the hp amp

Can it be described? eg. smoother, fuller, clearer, warmer etc.

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4 minutes ago, Glen Deakin said:

Lumpier, fatter, Juicier  

On the line i/ps as well as through the mic pres?

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There should not be that much gain applied using Lectro recevicers. I am using Wisy now, sometimes +16 gain on the 4-6 channels are needed, but the audio won't be clipping or have clipping effects. The problem might be somewhere else, not the line level inputs on the 4-6 channels I assume.

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Referring to using 4-6 on the 633, the TRIM is your friend in this case.  I use my 411's on those channels and have success.  I have been using the 633 since they first came out and am still learning about it.  I just finished a movie and had to adjust the trim on a regular basis depending on the actors volume.  The big problem with 4-6 is the use of wimpy little pots to save room.  Fine adjustment can be a challenge. This is a fine machine that packs a lot into a small space.  Big bang for the bucks.

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The 633 is basically a 302 on steroids with a full-featured recorder built in.  What's not to like!  If someone finds the controls "wimpy," then it would appear they've chosen the wrong mixer. 

Limiters are not -- and should not be -- a substitute for proper gain staging and gain management.  They're a worthwhile tool when really needed, but if a person can't function without them, then somethings wrong, and it's not the 633.

Pretty much every Sound Devices mixer I've ever used has different limiters, each with their own character.  The best use of limiters is to strive to never need them -- but have them kick in only on rare instances where they can add a bit of safety.

 

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788 sounds better than 6 series, period.

RE: Clipping on inputs 4-5-6 - How much more gain are you adding using the Channel Trim in the PFL ?

 

 

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28 minutes ago, John Blankenship said:

The 633 is basically a 302 on steroids with a full-featured recorder built in.  What's not to like!  If someone finds the controls "wimpy," then it would appear they've chosen the wrong mixer. 

Limiters are not -- and should not be -- a substitute for proper gain staging and gain management.  They're a worthwhile tool when really needed, but if a person can't function without them, then somethings wrong, and it's not the 633.

Pretty much every Sound Devices mixer I've ever used has different limiters, each with their own character.  The best use of limiters is to strive to never need them -- but have them kick in only on rare instances where they can add a bit of safety.

 

When an actor suddenly changes a performance. Shouts instead of whispers. Everyone LOVES it!! Your 6-series line input clipped. There's the problem.

We can all agree that proper gain staging will prevent the use of limiters for regular use. But we're not getting paid as professionals to record ordinary things. Almost anyone can do that (although I've hear a lot of distorted news reports lately). We are paid to capture performances that are out of the ordinary. We can't simply say, "Ooops. That actor is going into one of my line inputs without a limiter, and I didn't get that take." Although when an actor changes the performance and overshoots a mark, and it's out of focus, they seem to be ok with that.

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32 minutes ago, RPSharman said:

When an actor suddenly changes a performance. Shouts instead of whispers. Everyone LOVES it!! Your 6-series line input clipped. There's the problem.

We can all agree that proper gain staging will prevent the use of limiters for regular use. But we're not getting paid as professionals to record ordinary things. Almost anyone can do that (although I've hear a lot of distorted news reports lately). We are paid to capture performances that are out of the ordinary. We can't simply say, "Ooops. That actor is going into one of my line inputs without a limiter, and I didn't get that take." Although when an actor changes the performance and overshoots a mark, and it's out of focus, they seem to be ok with that.

Thanks RP, you summarized it well!

I concur as we're hired and paid well to get clean recordings in challenging situations. White hot, artifact free, and impactful recordings that support the 4-8k high def visuals being recorded. As an example I recently did a roundtable shoot with women who had lost a child. I knew it would be emotional so I ran my boom and 4th lav through my 302 into the 633 line inputs. Also chose to put the African American woman through that lav as she had the most powerful range in her voice. Was a good move too as she went from super quiet whisper to thunderous vocal projections. Those 302 limiters saved that part of the scene until I could ease the faders down. The director was worried we lost the audio as she was deafening but to her surprise on playback it was excellent, even at clipping. My mentors never taught me that stuff but they did teach me how to plan, to think, and set the standard that I strive to maintain as a professional. Being a good soundman is much more than being technically proficient and really is a background art form unto itself.

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It's true that a limiter can save the day on an unexpected performance. Still, if that means the voice goes into the limiter heavily and for a whole take, the recording is basically distorted. It's only a touch better than actual clipping.

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4 hours ago, RPSharman said:

When an actor suddenly changes a performance. Shouts instead of whispers. Everyone LOVES it!! Your 6-series line input clipped. There's the problem.

We can all agree that proper gain staging will prevent the use of limiters for regular use. But we're not getting paid as professionals to record ordinary things. Almost anyone can do that (although I've hear a lot of distorted news reports lately). We are paid to capture performances that are out of the ordinary. We can't simply say, "Ooops. That actor is going into one of my line inputs without a limiter, and I didn't get that take." Although when an actor changes the performance and overshoots a mark, and it's out of focus, they seem to be ok with that.

Robert,  

Thanks for schooling me on what it takes to be a good sound mixer.  Maybe some day I'll be as awesome as you.

Until then I still think that, among other things, being a pro means choosing the right tool for the job, and if someone requires six inputs with limiters, a 633 is not the right choice.  Perhaps that's why Sound Devices also makes the 688. 

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John, since your comment was about what I wrote, please vent your thoughts to me. I'd love to get a 688 eventually and what you said may have some validity. But my role in the area I service is certainly not to compete against the people who taught me how to be a professional. My 633 fills a niche and does it well. Right now my niche is not as a department head for feature films. For those I enjoy supporting my friends careers as a boom op or assistant.

So John as good as you may be as a sound mixer, it's really not cool to throw stones. Not many of us are in the same league as some of the masters on this board. In my opinion it takes not only skills, a willingness to listen, but also genuine humility to get to their level. Peace out bro!

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7 hours ago, Dutch said:

Thanks RP, you summarized it well!

I concur as we're hired and paid well to get clean recordings in challenging situations. White hot, artifact free, and impactful recordings that support the 4-8k high def visuals being recorded. As an example I recently did a roundtable shoot with women who had lost a child. I knew it would be emotional so I ran my boom and 4th lav through my 302 into the 633 line inputs. Also chose to put the African American woman through that lav as she had the most powerful range in her voice. Was a good move too as she went from super quiet whisper to thunderous vocal projections. Those 302 limiters saved that part of the scene until I could ease the faders down. The director was worried we lost the audio as she was deafening but to her surprise on playback it was excellent, even at clipping. My mentors never taught me that stuff but they did teach me how to plan, to think, and set the standard that I strive to maintain as a professional. Being a good soundman is much more than being technically proficient and really is a background art form unto itself.

Dutch. Glad you saw it coming and were prepared. Save the self congratulating and blowing smoke up your own ass for a job well done. comes as "not cool".  Same goes for throwing shade at a well respected member here @jwsound who goes out of his way to help all. Peace in.

CrewC

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I will take that to heart Old School. But frankly I wish you'd share some of how you deal with recording challenges. I wouldn't take that as self congratulating or blowing smoke. Don't you ever say that I threw shade on John because that's bullshit and not true. I spoke to John as a peer who ripped on another peer. Surely Robert doesn't need my defense but I've appreciated the viewpoints he shares and I agree with 99% of what he shares so I did. Obviously there are biases here that I'm unaware of.

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the 4-6 gain staging is an annoyance i wish i didnt have to be cognizant of when using the 633, but i prefer bearing that mental weight instead of humping around a 664/8 for 5 clip free iso's on the too regular 14 hour days i work on

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, John Blankenship said:

Robert,  

Thanks for schooling me on what it takes to be a good sound mixer.  Maybe some day I'll be as awesome as you.

Until then I still think that, among other things, being a pro means choosing the right tool for the job, and if someone requires six inputs with limiters, a 633 is not the right choice.  Perhaps that's why Sound Devices also makes the 688. 

Oh, boy! I didn't mean it like that! Very sorry if you took it that way.

I hate the internet.

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Just wondering how you guys are recording the ISO's on the 633, pre fade or post fade?

Although I don't use my 633 that much (I tend to go for my 788's), I can't say I've heard this clipping. However, when I first noticed I couldn't get the desired level on 4 - 6, I got around it by recording the ISO's post fade. I can always find a moment to drop the channel in/out of the mix from the PFL screen on the type of shows I do. I understand this work flow may not work for some. 

Will be experimenting with my UCR411a and inputs 4 - 6 to see if I can recreate the clipping mentioned. 

What headphone level are you on when it clips? 

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And exhale. Dutch, things aren't usually so stressed around here...at least not since a couple people left or calmed down. And the folks involved in this unintended kerfuffle have always struck me as knowledgable, generous, and even keeled... though with enough spice to make things interesting (in a non-mean way). 

So I'm marking this up to some random cluster of misunderstanding. Or spring is arriving late in some climes...

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Thanks Jim, it's been a long tough winter and I realize everyone is facing personal/professional challenges. Just hours ago my girlfriend dumped me because she sees no future in what I enjoy doing (film production/sound). It's been one of those weeks! Lol

This is a pretty awesome group of people here and I'm very thankful of all the positive member contributions. Wish I had enough spare $$$ to make the trip out to NAB and meet some of these people in person.

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Around here I'm old school Dutch, not Old School, but wtf does it really matter? Call me Crew. That's my name. Crew Chamberlain. Local 695. L A...  

"But frankly I wish you'd share some of how you deal with recording challenges." Dutch...  

I will give you this truth, It's never the gear, it's what you do with it. It's never the monitor or meters that matter, it's what you do with the tools to make the recording as thorough and complete as it can be. Simple in theory. 

I think J B was telling you this truth. It's not the gear. Don't lecture him. He's been here since day 1, 2, or 3.  When did you join this conversation? Credits matter amigo.

CrewC

 

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Not sure where your seeming angst is coming from Crew, but it's not rooted with me. I capitalized your screen name because they taught me in school to always capitalize names and it's no sign of disrespect.

7 hours ago, old school said:

I will give you this truth, It's never the gear, it's what you do with it. It's never the monitor or meters that matter, it's what you do with the tools to make the recording as thorough and complete as it can be. Simple in theory. 

I disagree with your statement as it's a mix of quality gear and knowing how to get the most from it that produces professional results.

7 hours ago, old school said:

When did you join this conversation? Credits matter amigo.

I've been reading this forum since 2011 and joined within the last few years. I have a dozen IMDB credits since the last film on your list and over 3000 hours of feature film and reality TV work in that time period.

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