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Sound Devices Mix Pre-3 and Mix Pre-6

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4 hours ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

But will it be 'synched' or just have a tc stamp?

rather likely it will only be timecode stamped. but since a setup like this only really makes sense in a amateur setup that seems ok to me. I mean, on important jobs I wouldn't want to have to deal with dual powering, dual data management and dual rec buttons and synching in post. I'd get a 633 instead or if it's for no budget productions I'd probably use a Zoom F8.

chris

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9 hours ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

But will it be 'synched' or just have a tc stamp? It seems the only way to get a sync is via the hdmi hardware, for which we are awaiting information and guidance?

Jez

On the recorder? Just TC stamp. The HDMI connection on the MixPre only provides Timecode as well. Only wordclock will control the speed at which the recorder samples. But considering that our recorders sample at a much faster rate than cameras create frames, they tend to have more accurate clocks, and I would be more concerned about the video drifting first. You can have a sync box on camera that supplies both Timecode and Genlock.

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28 minutes ago, Jose Frias said:

The HDMI connection on the MixPre only provides Timecode as well. Only wordclock will control the speed at which the recorder samples. 

In one of the videos a SD rep mentions that the HDMI will control the sampling of the recorder, indicating that it would act as World Clock. Of course there's always the possibility that this is a misunderstanding since their manual still is rather thin on real tech information and seems to focus more on the audio novice.

chris

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2 hours ago, chrismedr said:

In one of the videos a SD rep mentions that the HDMI will control the sampling of the recorder, indicating that it would act as World Clock. Of course there's always the possibility that this is a misunderstanding since their manual still is rather thin on real tech information and seems to focus more on the audio novice.

chris

I was not aware of this, since as you say, it's not documented on the manual. Would love it if someone from SD could confirm this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

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Peshawar   

The things I'm hoping SD adds to the Mixpres are :

1. Using the hdmi ports to sync up two of them, hopefully with some sort of tod tc and sample clock or at the very least sample clock. Along with transport commands, of course. That way you could have two Mixpres that would stay in properly clocked sync for long files, along with transport commands. Even if the tc wasn't there, simply having transport and sample rate lock would be a big help for my needs (once the multichannel files are brought into Pro Tools and synced they will stay in sync).

 

2. Better options with the limiters. As it stands the limiters aren't good for very loud sfx. The release time is way too long. So things with loud transients tend to get sucked away in a fashion I find to be unusable. Hoping for at least a "fast" setting on the release times. Also, being able to separate the limiters (input limiters functioning independently from the mix limiter) so that you could make a loud mix track by goosing up the iso's with fader volume, and still have iso's with full dynamic range.

 

3. Probably a pipe dream, but some sort of phase alignment tool for multiple mics. Delays with .1 ms resolution. If I have a bunch of microphones up for recording guns for instance, having a utility besides my ears to help get the different angles in phase would be amazing. Of course, I also want this available at 192k. Like I said, pipe dream.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Jose Frias said:

I was not aware of this, since as you say, it's not documented on the manual. Would love it if someone from SD could confirm this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

this is the video I heard this in (just after the three minute mark):

 

Jon Tatooles seems quite specific, so chances are this is real ; )

 

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2. Better options with the limiters. As it stands the limiters aren't good for very loud sfx.

Why don't you just gain it down?

 

I think overall the MixPre isn't for you. You seem to need a more pro machine

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Peshawar   
Why don't you just gain it down?
 
I think overall the MixPre isn't for you. You seem to need a more pro machine


The Mixpre is a good option for me, at least for now. I can use external preamps if I have to to get the sound I want. Would I like a Sonosax sx-62r or a Cantar Mini? Yes I would. But there's a large cost difference and even if SD doesn't change a thing I can make it work. I was just putting some feedback out there in the hopes that improvements might be possible. But if nothing happens I'm good with that too.

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16 hours ago, Jose Frias said:

But considering that our recorders sample at a much faster rate than cameras create frames, they tend to have more accurate clocks, and I would be more concerned about the video drifting first. You can have a sync box on camera that supplies both Timecode and Genlock.

Correct, but for the wrong reason.

The clock accuracy for video streams is actually very precisely specified, and is under 10ppm.   But DSLR cameras were never designed for video, so they only have 50ppm or (much) worse clocks. Video drift is bad on DSLRs, and there's obviously no Genlock on that class of product.

Pro video cameras are at 10ppm or better, so are fine for short clips, but for long days, they're still not accurate enough to match the low ppm drifts boasted by the newer audio recorders.   -> TC timestamping is still not enough.

You can't completely solve the drift unless you lock the audio recorder to the DSLR somehow.   This is something TASCAM considered deeply for the DR-701D, and we have a patent pending on our method as well.

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17 minutes ago, Tom Duffy said:

Correct, but for the wrong reason.

The clock accuracy for video streams is actually very precisely specified, and is under 10ppm.   But DSLR cameras were never designed for video, so they only have 50ppm or (much) worse clocks. Video drift is bad on DSLRs, and there's obviously no Genlock on that class of product.

Pro video cameras are at 10ppm or better, so are fine for short clips, but for long days, they're still not accurate enough to match the low ppm drifts boasted by the newer audio recorders.   -> TC timestamping is still not enough.

You can't completely solve the drift unless you lock the audio recorder to the DSLR somehow.   This is something TASCAM considered deeply for the DR-701D, and we have a patent pending on our method as well.

I never stated any reasons. Just that in general, video camera clocks are less accurate than those of recorders. I do agree with your statement regarding TC stamping not being enough even with pro video camera when doing longer takes.

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35 minutes ago, Jose Frias said:

I never stated any reasons. Just that in general, video camera clocks are less accurate than those of recorders. I do agree with your statement regarding TC stamping not being enough even with pro video camera when doing longer takes.

If by "in general", you mean only DSLR cameras have inaccurace frame rates based on poor clocks.  I've never been able to measure the accuracy of say an older VHS-C camcorder, but those manufacturers knew the specs required accurate clocks.  It's only when video became an afterthought that we really see the bad ones. A C200 should be at spec and much better than a 5D.

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On 6/13/2017 at 8:51 AM, Throwback said:

A few bugs apart (I'm especially keen for the MS/stereo-linking Mixpre-3 pan bug to be fixed...), I think SD have got the functionality spot on.

SD have just released a firmware update that apparently corrects the MS and stereo-linking bug, and all the other reported bugs that I am aware of, plus more to boot, and adds a few very modest changes, which is excellent news.

Cheers,

Roland

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16 hours ago, Tom Duffy said:

If by "in general", you mean only DSLR cameras have inaccurace frame rates based on poor clocks.  I've never been able to measure the accuracy of say an older VHS-C camcorder, but those manufacturers knew the specs required accurate clocks.  It's only when video became an afterthought that we really see the bad ones. A C200 should be at spec and much better than a 5D.

Tom, I think you keep inferring things from my comments that I'm not implying. All I keep saying is that a camera's clock (as you stated in professional video cameras usually less than 10ppm) is in general less accurate than a recorder's clock (In my experience, professional recorders will have less than 1ppm). Until now, I hadn't stated any specific accuracy values, nor any specific examples.

The Canon C300 is considered a professional video camera by many standards, however as you probably already know, it will start drifting very quickly in comparison to a recorder like Sound Devices 6-series. There's obviously exceptions to everything. Arri Alexa is extremely accurate at 0.2ppm.

Anyway, the point of all this here being that the Sound Devices MixPre-3/6 could likely work well with professional cameras as well as DSLR-types by having a timecode generator feeding it timecode via Aux In, and having a sync box feed timecode and genlock to the camera (i.e. Canon C300).

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cmgoodin   
13 hours ago, Throwback said:

SD have just released a firmware update that apparently corrects the MS and stereo-linking bug, and all the other reported bugs that I am aware of, plus more to boot, and adds a few very modest changes, which is excellent news.

Cheers,

Roland

I just checked the latest firmware 1.1.1 and it still has the User Bits Error (bug)  where if you embed the Date in the User Bits of the external time code the MixPre interprets it incorrectly and stores the wrong values in the metadata.  There have been 2 versions released since I reported this bug so I guess it is not high on their priorities since you can't observe this error unless you load the files into something else.

No way to view user bits on the machine itself in record or playback.

Also I suggested they put the date in the User Bits of the time code metadata when in "Time of Day" mode.  It is still just filling those fields with 00000000 which is meaningless.  It would be better to have the Date as MMDDYYXX in the user bits to differentiate between files recorded at the same time on different days.

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On 6/25/2017 at 8:06 AM, Jose Frias said:

I was not aware of this, since as you say, it's not documented on the manual. Would love it if someone from SD could confirm this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

The MixPre will sync to the HDMI TC Input if there is a valid HDMI signal connected to the HDMI TC In port AND TC Mode menu is set to HDMI TC In. This ensures zero drift between camera and MixPre.

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8 minutes ago, Paul Isaacs said:

The MixPre will sync to the HDMI TC Input if there is a valid HDMI signal connected to the HDMI TC In port AND TC Mode menu is set to HDMI TC In. This ensures zero drift between camera and MixPre.

Good to know. Thanks Paul!

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15 minutes ago, Paul Isaacs said:

The MixPre will sync to the HDMI TC Input if there is a valid HDMI signal connected to the HDMI TC In port AND TC Mode menu is set to HDMI TC In. This ensures zero drift between camera and MixPre.

Yep, thanks for that info.

Is there a list somewhere which cameras have a compatible HDMI TC signal (and also which cameras will trigger the record on HDMI)?

I understand his is probably hard to compile and verify, but it sure would be of benefit for a lot of people.

chris 

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3 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

Yep, thanks for that info.

Is there a list somewhere which cameras have a compatible HDMI TC signal (and also which cameras will trigger the record on HDMI)?

I understand his is probably hard to compile and verify, but it sure would be of benefit for a lot of people.

chris 

This is what we've tested  up to now ...

https://www.sounddevices.com/products/recorders/mixpre-6/supported-cameras

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fantastic, I must have missed that when I last searched the SD site.

looking forward for the list to grow (and will report when I manage to test some cameras too)

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dactylus   
On 6/6/2017 at 0:43 AM, Constantin said:


You could instead get the Hawk-Woods dummy L-mount to Hirose adapter. The dummy battery is very flat, so shouldn't stick out much if at all. and you could connect your power supply of choice to it.

I just received my Hawk-Woods dummy L-mount to Hirose adapter and I'm awaiting a Naztech PB15000 battery cable with a female Hirose connector to be able to try this out.  

I also purchased this very low profile 2200mAh, Sony NP-F570 L Series InfoLithium Battery to use in conjunction with the Hawk-Woods dummy cell.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002Y5WVQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

On 6/10/2017 at 3:10 AM, chrismedr said:

thanks for the hands on info.

yeah, bit strange decisions on the powering options, specially since the sleds are not cheap for a bit of plastic (80EUR for the 4AA and 125EUR for the 8AA and NP-F). Personally I would love to see a sled with single NP-F inline and small integrated buffer battery that can run the unit for 5minutes for swapping batteries. 

chris

I would also like to see a sled with a single NP-F inline and a small integrated buffer battery that can run the unit for 5 minutes for swapping batteries!!  The L-mount sled with 7200-7800mah batteries are a definite no go!!

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dfisk   

I made a video about using timecode with the MixPres. Hopefully this clears up any confusion. 
 

 

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JayKay   

Hi together, would someone with a MixPre-3 do me a favor?

Could you connect nothing to the XLR-Inputs at all, turn up the gain on all channels all the way and turn the faders to unity. Then take a photo of the display, where I can see the levels of all tracks. 

My MixPre-3 seems to have a problem with extensive noise in channel 1 compared to channel 2 and 3. And when I do the test above, the level of channel 1 is quite a bit higher than channel 2 and 3. I want to know, if I´m the only one with this problem or do other MixPre-3 users experience this as well.

Thanks in advance!

 

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4 hours ago, JayKay said:

Hi together, would someone with a MixPre-3 do me a favor?

Could you connect nothing to the XLR-Inputs at all, turn up the gain on all channels all the way and turn the faders to unity. Then take a photo of the display, where I can see the levels of all tracks. 

My MixPre-3 seems to have a problem with extensive noise in channel 1 compared to channel 2 and 3. And when I do the test above, the level of channel 1 is quite a bit higher than channel 2 and 3. I want to know, if I´m the only one with this problem or do other MixPre-3 users experience this as well.

Thanks in advance!

 

Afraid I haven't either MP3 or 6 so cannot help directly ... But - turning gain up without some resistance upon inputs is not going to be a 'test' of any kind ... Is there extensive (or any unbalanced) noise on ch 1 compared to 2 3 when similar mics are connected? If so, ask SD for advice and if faulty return?

Jez

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JayKay   
8 hours ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

turning gain up without some resistance upon inputs is not going to be a 'test' of any kind

You are right, but this problem is not affected by the source impedance. I also tested it with a 150 ohms resistor... Same result.

Btw. the noise ch 1 is only more noisy in the lower frequencies. 500 hertz and below which is unusual. At 20 Hz ch1 has 14db!!! more noise than ch 2 or 3.

This device was already sent to Sound Devices by my dealer and they said, that everything is fine :(

So if anybody else is experiencing this, it might even be a design flaw...

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