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Arn

Delay on analog tracks on set?

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hi all,

I am user of the cantar x3 and zaxcom wireless.

Since i want audio-post to have a quick-sync, i am in doubt of putting delay on my analog inputs/how much delay?

 

I am using XR-modulation on my tx's so these have 6ms delay, ad another 1ms because my qrx's are in dual mode.

I found my trx742 to have 7,5 ms delay (read it had someting to do with the neverclip?)

Using the trx742 with stereocone it would have 10,5 ms delay.

So we have (correct me if i am wrong zaxcom?):

-7ms

-7,5ms

-10,5ms

 

I still prefer the cantar analog in's, so if possible i'd use these.

maybe it is to far fetched, but would it be possible to delay al the analog channels by 7 ms so all channels (except the MS-couple) are in sync. and then correct the delay by an offset in the timecode?

Then there only is an 'on-set' delay of 7 ms we would have to live with. does it kind of match with all the delays from ALEXA-TERADEK-MONITOR?

 

How are your setups?

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1 hour ago, Arn said:

maybe it is to far fetched, but would it be possible to delay al the analog channels by 7 ms so all channels (except the MS-couple) are in sync. and then correct the delay by an offset in the timecode?

Then there only is an 'on-set' delay of 7 ms we would have to live with. does it kind of match with all the delays from ALEXA-TERADEK-MONITOR?

at 25fps, 1 frame would be 40ms, so there's no point in changing timecode for a 7ms delay since it's only about 1/7th or a frame.

for on set monitoring, you could put measure how much your specific setup is out of synch and put that as an output delay.

 

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I don't have a cantar or zaxcom RMs but it sounds like you're over thinking this. @ 25fps, 1 frame is 40ms. 7ms is less than 20% of a frame or the difference 1 viewer has sitting 2 metres closer to (or further from) the screen than you. Personally, I adjust I/P delays to reduce the chance of 'phasing' of different channels in mix. I would reduce O/P delays if asked but those monitoring picture due latency in that signal chain.

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one of the many things i like about the x3 is that once you know your delay, you just apply that delay to that input/track and it automatically adjust the rest of the tracks. so in other words if you have 7ms delay, you only apply that delay to the specific channel and the x3 takes care of the rest. i think it has what is called automatic delay compensation. i agree with what has been said above. its negligeble, but i can still hear it so i usually pick one mic over the other. you get this even with wired connections because of physical distance....

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1 hour ago, ivanovich said:

one of the many things i like about the x3 is that once you know your delay, you just apply that delay to that input/track and it automatically adjust the rest of the tracks. so in other words if you have 7ms delay, you only apply that delay to the specific channel and the x3 takes care of the rest. i think it has what is called automatic delay compensation. i agree with what has been said above. its negligeble, but i can still hear it so i usually pick one mic over the other. you get this even with wired connections because of physical distance....

Plus in the X3 the Double Solo & Phase-meter, this is exemplary, and no other manufacturer has thought to implement anything like it, do you use it? How do you find it? Can you adjust delay on the fly whilst watching the phase meter, for example? I have tried an X3 but forgot to try that.

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11 hours ago, RPSharman said:

I don't set delay in anything. But that's just me. Who needs to do maths at work every day? Not me!

i dont normally. since i know the system delay for my zaxcom and i always use them in line inputs of ghe x3 i just let them live like that. i figure what the hey! its easy to do and like has been said before they can really tweak that in post. the beauty of the x3 is that i dont have to do the math! its like having a protools hd system where once you set it you can just forget about it(for the most part)

11 hours ago, pindrop said:

Plus in the X3 the Double Solo & Phase-meter, this is exemplary, and no other manufacturer has thought to implement anything like it, do you use it? How do you find it? Can you adjust delay on the fly whilst watching the phase meter, for example? I have tried an X3 but forgot to try that.

i mostly use the double solo for stereo recordings, for example the main mics of an orchestral recording or something like that. i dont usually do phase correlation for dry dialogue. 

i'm not too sure if the delays are tweakable while on record position. right now the x3 is with my friends over at Vark Audio getting some work done but when I get it back I'll see if I can access the delay compensation engine while on record.....

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For music, this makes some sense.  I don't normally worry about it if, let's say, the main pair and the flankers are a few feet apart front to back. But "verb" pairs or soloist pairs in far distant parts of the recording space do get treated.  There's a Pro Tools Plugin to do this automatically but it's a bit fiddly.  I just use an old pair of clap-stix I had around and clap them under the main pair.  The "snap" shows up prominently in all the tracks and makes it super-easy to align by eye.  A producer friend of mine turned me on to that trick :)

D.

 

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I agree that 7 ms doesn't matter in relation to picture sync, but I have dialed in a few ms of delay on some inputs to compensate for differences in distance when mixing boom and lavs. For some wide shots it did help me achieve an appropriately sounding mix.

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10 hours ago, Christian Spaeth said:

I agree that 7 ms doesn't matter in relation to picture sync, but I have dialed in a few ms of delay on some inputs to compensate for differences in distance when mixing boom and lavs. For some wide shots it did help me achieve an appropriately sounding mix.

per le orecchie

 

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If I know the editor that will be editing a sit down interview with two people and if there is no rush or stress on the shoot, I have delayed one person's audio by several seconds, usually for one take only.  Gets them all excited.  This only works if you know the person very well.  Not for the faint of heart!!

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On 2 May 2017 at 2:08 PM, RPSharman said:

I don't set delay in anything. But that's just me. Who needs to do maths at work every day? Not me!

Forgive me for jumping straight in without reading all the threads so far but I take it this is a question from production sound to post production sound. As the latter, as a dialogue editor, I (and the rerecording mixers) welcome iso tracks for very many reasons today. I would generally take a 'master' track as a sync base and in most cases this is the boom (boom no1) track as it hopefully (sounds best and) best reflects the direct-ambient sound that the sound team has managed to get to match the (camera) picture. It is often slightly wrong but that's why we do our jobs to correct stuff.

As a general rule, dialogue editing, I take the 'master track' (the boom) and pull the isos into sync with that, manually. There's not a shortcut - it either takes a little time ... or it's not important enough to do. Thinking to do it in advance is (probably) pointless extra work to no effect.

I am in absolute favour of the higher level recorders being able to offset and apply delay but this is of use (indeed necessary) for live recording applications where for example front or spot microphones have to be delayed (to a mathematically determined amount) to match room or surround rigs in non-perfect situations.

As someone said, thinking too much into it.

Jez

 

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19 hours ago, Christian Spaeth said:

I agree that 7 ms doesn't matter in relation to picture sync, but I have dialed in a few ms of delay on some inputs to compensate for differences in distance when mixing boom and lavs. For some wide shots it did help me achieve an appropriately sounding mix.

No problem if it helps a decent mix track. We will still if necessary manually correct sync.

But it makes me think of the two reasons that delay has been (very welcomely) introduced into equipment. One is that in controlled circumstances like music recording delay according to distance can be measured and calculated. The other is that equipment where delay is expected and known can be accurately compensated for.

In all cases, beyond glorious mono, we have a certain, if often negligible, determination of phase and delay we might have to be aware of, but if it sounds ok ...

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