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M Sisco

Delivering files from multiple recorders

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M Sisco   

I would like some suggestions.  I currently use a 552 mixer, synced to a 744T for timecode.  Generally I do my mix tracks in the 552 and my ISOs on the 744T.  This works great because the mix tracks are already separated for the editor and can be joined if needed in post by timecode.  It also sucks because there is no way to label shots inside the mixer, so I have to re-name all the mixer files to match the recorder files afterward, while generating the audio report in Wave Agent.      Any one else deal with this?  What is your process? 

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My process is to use a dedicated single recorder with a mix track and ISOS all in one  Poly.wav file..  None of what you describe is involved in this workflow.. SO much easier. Although your system may work, you are adding xtra tasks for yourself..

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I end up using multiple machines a lot.  I often end up plugging all media into a computer so that Wave Agent can make a report covering all the files, and if I have time I copy all of machine B's files to the media of machine A (sep folder).  The main issue for post isn't so much having multiple media (they have that anyway) as knowing what they have or need to find--hence 1 combo report.  This worked quite well for exactly the OP's config, as well as many others, as many as 4 recorders going.

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I would be interested to hear suggestions too. So far the only time I've had to do this is when I had more channels than my 788 could handle so I had to C-Link a 744t to it to handle the overflow. In that case file naming wasn't a problem, but I still dumped everything into Wave Agent afterward to generate one combined sound report and give all of the files to the editor together. 

 

-Mike

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2 hours ago, Mobilemike said:

I would be interested to hear suggestions too. So far the only time I've had to do this is when I had more channels than my 788 could handle so I had to C-Link a 744t to it to handle the overflow. In that case file naming wasn't a problem, but I still dumped everything into Wave Agent afterward to generate one combined sound report and give all of the files to the editor together. 

 

-Mike

 

Have you tried to combine all corresponding files into one? Maybe it's possible to record mono files on each machine and then merge them into one poly with WaveAgent

 

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M Sisco   

Unfortunately wave agent can't combine them to one poly file because the files created by the two machines don't have the same start/stop time.  It's not the same as digitally linking two 700 series units.  The 552 in auto-record records when it sees timecode moving from the 744T. That takes about .5 milliseconds to happen.  

I have to just re-name those files to match the 744T files.  Hence the saving for an upgrade.  

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20 minutes ago, M Sisco said:

Unfortunately wave agent can't combine them to one poly file because the files created by the two machines don't have the same start/stop time.  It's not the same as digitally linking two 700 series units.  The 552 in auto-record records when it sees timecode moving from the 744T. That takes about .5 milliseconds to happen.  

I have to just re-name those files to match the 744T files.  Hence the saving for an upgrade.  

 

But if it were 2x linked 788T with the same start/stop time, could it be done?

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In theory, yes.  For the 744+552 recordings you can either rename or just add a text doc to the folder letting post know what the naming convention means.  The TC will allow them to snap the files together in their timeline regardless of their length.

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4 hours ago, RPSharman said:

 

But if it were 2x linked 788T with the same start/stop time, could it be done?

 

Turns out that it cannot. I just tried it as I have a project coming up where I'll be using two 788T. At least I can't get it to work. When everything is identical, WaveAgent won't accept the files from the second recorder. I then changed the Take T to a B (in finder). Now WA will load the files but it'll only merge them as two separate poly files. 

 

Update: it does work. The take designator needs to stay the same, but the track number at the end of the file name needs to be different. All metadata needs to be the same. In my trial the UBit was somehow different. 

But I don't know how I can influence the file name in mono files on a 788?

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19 hours ago, Constantin said:

 

Turns out that it cannot. I just tried it as I have a project coming up where I'll be using two 788T. At least I can't get it to work. When everything is identical, WaveAgent won't accept the files from the second recorder. I then changed the Take T to a B (in finder). Now WA will load the files but it'll only merge them as two separate poly files. 

 

Update: it does work. The take designator needs to stay the same, but the track number at the end of the file name needs to be different. All metadata needs to be the same. In my trial the UBit was somehow different. 

But I don't know how I can influence the file name in mono files on a 788?

 

Interesting - So if you are somehow able to change the track number on the 788T, then it can merge wav mono into a single poly with all tracks? It seems unlikely there is a way to change 1 to 9, 2 to 10, and so forth.

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2 hours ago, RPSharman said:

 

Interesting - So if you are somehow able to change the track number on the 788T, then it can merge wav mono into a single poly with all tracks? It seems unlikely there is a way to change 1 to 9, 2 to 10, and so forth.

 

Yes, that's right, but I haven't found a way to change the track number, like you said it seems unlikely. I meant to contact SD about this, but haven't done so yet. It would seem like a useful addition to the C-Link option. 

 

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On 8/24/2017 at 11:34 PM, Constantin said:

 

Yes, that's right, but I haven't found a way to change the track number, like you said it seems unlikely. I meant to contact SD about this, but haven't done so yet. It would seem like a useful addition to the C-Link option. 

 

 

Would certainly breathe life back into the 788T if it were easy to get all the tracks onto one file. Suddenly the two 788Ts are a 16-track recorder!

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Bouke   

Well, BWF isn't that hard to alter.

If someone can send me some testfiles, and you all write  specs on what a new app. should be able to do, I can make something.

https://videotoolshed.wetransfer.com/

 

Making multiple files match in duration / start is not that difficult.

Renaming is also not the issue. What I need to know is what to expect, and what metadata lives where, has to be (auto) altered, and perhaps other stuff I don't get.

(Mind you, I'm an editor and coder, not a sound guy.)

 

But I don't get the Poly part when you're talking about 10+ tracks.

But this is an old discussion that does not have to be repeated.

(Note, in most lingo a Track can be mono or poly, having 1 or more Channels. (especially for AV files this is important, as an AV file can have one or more video tracks, one or more data tracks, and one or more  sound tracks, where each sound track can have x channels....)

 

Bouke

 

 

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Here is SD's response:

 

"Unfortunately, there is no way to easily change the names of the tracks on two 788T's that are C-Linked, as metadata flows from one machine to the next for mirroring purposes.  Manually editing the mono wav file names is currently the best way to achieve what you are trying to do!"

 

I get the feeling that they didn't understand my question 100%, as they refer to "mirroring", which is a different option of C-linking which I wasn't asking about. Anyway, I followed-up, let's see if they reply

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2 hours ago, Bouke said:

Well, BWF isn't that hard to alter.

If someone can send me some testfiles, and you all write  specs on what a new app. should be able to do, I can make something.

https://videotoolshed.wetransfer.com/

 

Making multiple files match in duration / start is not that difficult.

Renaming is also not the issue. What I need to know is what to expect, and what metadata lives where, has to be (auto) altered, and perhaps other stuff I don't get.

(Mind you, I'm an editor and coder, not a sound guy.)

 

But I don't get the Poly part when you're talking about 10+ tracks.

But this is an old discussion that does not have to be repeated.

(Note, in most lingo a Track can be mono or poly, having 1 or more Channels. (especially for AV files this is important, as an AV file can have one or more video tracks, one or more data tracks, and one or more  sound tracks, where each sound track can have x channels....)

 

Bouke

 

 

 

All that needs to be done is to merge several monophonic .wav files, each into one large poly .wav file. Metadata must not be changed. Duration, start/stop times, TC, etc. are exactly the same down to the sample, so no changes needed. Only if for merging a name change is required then do it. 

 

Regarding track/channel: I am referring to a "track" in the same way as it was on a tape recorder. There was never any doubt about the terminology then. I don't know when/why it got muddled later, but that's how it. I know that a poly wav file contains several channels, and there it may make sense, but it's not easy within this discussion to decide when to refer to channels and when to tracks. In the 788T you label tracks, and inside WaveAgent it's also tracks, so I'm sticking with tracks

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Bouke   

Hi Contantin,

I'm afraid it is a bit more difficult.

If two recorders are used that start at 'about' the same time, it's not always that they know about each others existence, is it?

So, the metadata of the files from recorder 1 contains other info than the metadata of recorder 2

So those have to be merged.

Then, that metadata lives in both the Ixml as well as in the BWF chunk.

(Where the timestamp is the least of my worries.)

And of course, chances are big that the poly goes over the 2 gig limit, so that will be fun as well.

 

That's why I would like to see some real world files :-)

Bouke

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Bouke said:

Hi Contantin,

I'm afraid it is a bit more difficult.

If two recorders are used that start at 'about' the same time, it's not always that they know about each others existence, is it?

 

 

It depends. I wasn't sure if you were responding to my comments regarding the C-Link questions which I posed to SD, or to the OP who wants to link to different recorders. In the latter case I can imagine that it will be very difficult. You would probably have to fill up with silence the shorter tracks (channels) so they all match, right?

 

in my case, I am referring to two SD 788T which are linked by a C-link cable, something SD created to cascade two or more recorders. It also works with other 7-series recorders. In this case, both recorders automatically have matching TCs and samples. They start exactly on the same sample. In the C-link scenario, I'd imagine the merging of files to be a lot easier than in the OPs case

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Bouke   

Well, I would think to just strip the beginning of the files, since they start at about the same time.

(Less work :-)

Then, altering the track names in the BEXT and Ixml is doable as well, but the venim is in the tail:

What to do with the UUID's?

What output filename?

 

And, while I'm at it, what else could be handy that WaveAgent does not do?

(I could create sound reports in other formats than PDF, or make a customized PDF with your logo, etc..)

 

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pindrop   

Of course Pro Tools can do all this, (sync and merge files with different start/stop times, edit metadata etc. re-arrange & change track names) it's all just a bit cumbersome. Anyone got any idea if a plug in / script of some kind would be possible for Pro tools that could streamline all this, ie. do everything that Wave Agent does and more? Or Logic X?

I'm guessing not, as it would probably have already been done? I'd pay good money for it :) and have spent years trying to persuade Sound Devices to really develop Wave Agent to be more versatile and emerge from permanent free beta status, and have said many would pay for it, but never made any headway. I don't think Wave Agent has changed for years......

 

Aaton Cantar Majax is another piece of metadata software but will only work with Cantar files,

Majax3 (as a reference to Cantar X3) is now available for both Mac* and Microsoft Windows operating systems.

is able to :
> View and edit metadata    

> Change metadata on multiple takes at one time    

> Change Sc / Tk / Tracknames / Notes    

> Change Filename (Short, Long, Long with underscore)
> Play takes    

> Timeline with waveform    

> Cantar X3's vumeters.
> Edit Sound Reports.    

> Configurable Pdf template    

> Csv sound report
> Interleave takes.    

> Stereo interleave of mixdown tracks.    

> Stereo interleave of user selected tracks.    

> Polyphonic interleave.    

> Polyphonic interleave with track rotation.

 

Given that location mixers have been delivering poly wavs for many years now,  iXML metadata has been around for many years, it's still quite likely editors won't even see location track names. Though Final Cut X is making big efforts with highly versatile metadata, and does now use BWAV track names and other iXML metadata and feeds them in to its metadata system.

 

The iXML concept was born during a meeting of various vendors, including manufacturers of field recorders, NLEs and DAWs, hosted by the Institute of Broadcast Sound, in London, on 8 July 2004.

 

The whole situation is in a bit of a sorry state, though Aaton are the most active in trying to improve the situation particularly Yves Marie OMNES with iXML.

 

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So, in short, if we want to deliver one CF card with 9+ tracks in one Wav Poly file per take, then we just need a machine with more tracks.

 

In breathless anticipation of the new 716 or 816 (funny) from Sound Devices.

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Bouke   

Guys,

I just made something that can do exactly this. (It works under lab circumstances here.)

Input mono or poly files, output one big poly.

It does not matter if the files start at the same time or not.

Track names / other metadata is retained, in both the BEXT and iXML chunk.

@pindrop, if you can elaborate on what you wolud like to see, I can probably build it in.

You can reply here (so others might add,) or drop me a line directly.

I hope to have a beta version on my site tomorrow.

 

Bouke

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5 hours ago, Bouke said:

Guys,

I just made something that can do exactly this. (It works under lab circumstances here.)

Input mono or poly files, output one big poly.

It does not matter if the files start at the same time or not.

Track names / other metadata is retained, in both the BEXT and iXML chunk.

@pindrop, if you can elaborate on what you wolud like to see, I can probably build it in.

You can reply here (so others might add,) or drop me a line directly.

I hope to have a beta version on my site tomorrow.

 

Bouke

 

Wow, Bouke, if this really works I might think of you as a genius from now on. Not so much the coding, but the speed! 

 

Does this work on Mac? Either way, I'd be happy to Beta test this for you, if you like, and I would also pay for this, of course. The part of the job where I'll be needing this starts the week after next...

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vale   
On 29 agosto 2017 at 4:46 PM, Bouke said:

And, while I'm at it, what else could be handy that WaveAgent does not do?

(I could create sound reports in other formats than PDF, or make a customized PDF with your logo, etc..)

 

ALE export?

 

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pindrop   
9 hours ago, Bouke said:

Guys,

I just made something that can do exactly this. (It works under lab circumstances here.)

Input mono or poly files, output one big poly.

It does not matter if the files start at the same time or not.

Track names / other metadata is retained, in both the BEXT and iXML chunk.

@pindrop, if you can elaborate on what you wolud like to see, I can probably build it in.

You can reply here (so others might add,) or drop me a line directly.

I hope to have a beta version on my site tomorrow.

 

Bouke

 

Wow combining files that have different start times would be very useful. Presumably the start time of the interleaved file is determined by the last to start? Or can silence be an option to be added on the front or end, or both (user choice?) of tracks that are different lengths, that have some simultaneous timecode overlap?

I'm thinking of files that have been recorded by say Zaxcom transmitters with timecode, that can be incorporated in to a field recorder poly wave interleaved file, and they will have different start / stops.

That would be truly amazing...:)

 

Could track ordering be drag and drop?

 

I'm getting carried away now.....:)


The Majax list is pretty comprehensive

> View and edit metadata    

> Change metadata on multiple takes at one time    

> Change Sc / Tk / Tracknames / Notes    

> Change Filename (Short, Long, Long with underscore)
> Play takes    

> Timeline with waveform   
> Edit Sound Reports.    

> Configurable Pdf template    

> Csv sound report
> Interleave takes.    

> Stereo interleave of mixdown tracks.    

> Stereo interleave of user selected tracks.    

> Polyphonic interleave.    

> Polyphonic interleave with track rotation.

 

thanks....

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