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Deva Backups


obie2

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I have a general question for Deva IV & V users. I have done six or seven features using a DevaII with a Fostex PD-4 backup DAT, as I contemplate switching to a Deva IV, what are other people using as a backup and how. I sincerely wish to leave the DAT machines at home and backup on some other media,however I also don't really want to spend a lot of time at the end of the day burning discs other than my DVD-RAM which usually needs just a few minutes to catch up, since I start mirroring at lunch. Can the current Deva's mirror simultaneously to other hard drives? Is anybody using a DevaII to backup a DevaV and in what capacity. For me the hours are long enough, teamsters want to get going and I just don't want to spend time after wrap doing back up work, since between the hard drive and the DVD-RAM I am not sure if anything else is needed. Would love to hear from others on this.

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First of all, your concerns about having to do backup work at the end of the day indicates that it isn't clear yet WHY a backup is needed and what is its nature. Historically, we started all this backup stuff when we started using DAT and the backup was done because the DAT format, and many of the machines that used that format, were somewhat fragile, unpredictable and not terribly reliable (certainly as compared to the Nagra we had used for so many years). When I first used the Deva I, I continued to run my DAT machine as a "backup" but once the Deva proved itself I considered the DAT a backup but NOT for potential failure of the primary Deva recording, but rather a backup for procedures in post that might fail. So, know with a new Deva IV, the first job I ran my Deva II along side just because the Deva IV was a new item, but I never mirrored anything off the Deva II because a "backup" was never needed (and also, of course, I had ditched the DAT machine and it would never be on the cart again). I then stopped running the Deva II and went exclusively with the Deva IV and NO backup. At the end of the day, I would turn in the DVD-RAM disk and that was it. What was not covered by this procedure is the assurance that the post facility could handle the DVD-RAM disk and not start looking for the "DAT backup" to cover their problems. This compatibility issue I always try to work out in advance with the facility --- thus removing the last reason I felt I might need a backup --- to cover THEIR act, not mine.

I think everyone is doing something different regarding the whole issue of backup and hopefully there will be some other answers here. My main point is that one need not automatically assume that a backup routine involving a separate recorder and a separate deliverable is needed. If you are merely talking about a protection backup of the classic data backup type, this already exists at the end of the day on the internal hard drive of the Deva. The DVD-RAM disk you turn in is only one of many possible copies, or backups, that can be made.

-  Jeff Wexler

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Yeah, what's the backup for, what are you backing up?  If you want to backup the media, well, you still have the work on the Deva HD and could dump the day's work to another HD.  If you want to backup the recording system, then you need another recorder, and favorite would be a backup in the same format (another Deva or other BWF recorder).  If you want to backup the post process, then you should ask them what their backup medium for dailies is.  The producer's comfort level plays in this as well--I for instance work for a lot of people who don't know me, are from out of town.  They still like to have a DAT in addition to the BWFs.  Video producers seem to like the idea of backups (to the camera audio tracks) to a computer friendly medium like DVD-R.  So what do your people want?  It seems like the issue of reliability w/ BWF recorders has been settled--I still like a 2nd medium rolling because of how I might screwup--myself.

Philip Perkins

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I have close to 300 commercial days on my Deva4, which is not the same world as features, but let me toss in my 2 cents. At first I backed up to my hhb with the same timecode etc. until I found my comfort level with the new system. It didn't take long. What took awhile was one of the 3 main telecine houses wanted dat, and despite a number of conversations, was slow to change. All that worked itself out when the flood of dvd-rams went to the other two houses.  About a year ago the 3rd company saw the light and its been dvd-ram ever since. Before I erase my folders, I dump them to a Lacie until the end of the year, just in case. So far I have never needed any of the back-up folders. The Deva4 has been very good to me, in hot/cold/wet days and sorry to say nights. The only back-up I have is the old dats in my van. The only time the Deva screwed up was when I didn't hit the big red record button.

Regards

Old School

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As everyone here knows , I just had to make this same choice backing up a Deva 2 .

I chose after sleepless nights and careful deliberation, a Macbook with the Motu Ultralite and the Boomrecorder by Take Vos ( an active member of this forum) There are some kinks to work out of course (with the Motu and my setup)  but  I think I've made a good decision.

If I can help email me.

Larry Long

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jw said it the best, you have a backup with the int .hard drive already.

but here is what mixers are purchasing or renting right now to "backup" there deva

SD 744T

DEVA 2 ( yes,keep yr 2 as a backup)

metacorder

boomrecorder

FR2

TASCAM HDP2

and finally PD4

my 1 cent

fsbella,

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As everyone here knows , I just had to make this same choice backing up a Deva 2 .

I chose after sleepless nights and careful deliberation, a Macbook with the Motu Ultralite. There are some kinks to work out of course, with the Boomrecorder by Take Vos ( an active member of this forum)  I think I've made a good decision.

If I can help email me.

Larry Long

I just noticed the  error in my post. It should have read like this.

I chose after sleepless nights and careful deliberation, a Macbook with the Motu Ultralite and the Boomrecorder by Take Vos ( an active member of this forum) There are some kinks to work out of course (with the Motu and my setup)  but  I think I've made a good decision.

Sorry for any misunderstanding Take.

Larry

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I am often surprised at how little anyone involved in production knows about the path of the audio from production through post-production. Nobody on set (except possibly the production sound mixer) has any idea of where the sound goes through picture edit, sound edit (and sometimes re-conforming), and mix. Picture editorial is a bit confused about what happens to the sound before it comes to them and after it leaves them. And on many sets, the sudden craziness at the end of the day means that the likelyhood of losing tapes/discs/etc is pretty high.

Everyone is afraid enough to be careful about keeping track of video tapes/film cans, but I've had two (albiet low-budget) features where a sound roll was LOST by production! The last time it happened, the picture editor's assistant called me in a panic -- they didn't have the audio for the last day of shooting, luckily I'd only rolled some wild sound that day so the file sizes were relatively small and I uploaded the audio data from my hard drive (Metacorder) via FTP.

It would be great if sound editorial should be in those production meetings before principal photography. But of course, they're frequently not even hired by then, so they can't be.

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Before I erase my folders, I dump them to a Lacie until the end of the year, just in case. So far I have never needed any of the back-up folders.

Regards

Old School

I did a 3 day seminar in December, in which case I backed-up all 36gigs to a firewire drive. They asked for the files a month later, because their sound editor failed miserably, and for some reason they had communication issues and couldn't get their hands on the files they gave them. Now I back up every job from the year, also! Saved the day!

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did you get paid for that back up or you saved their ass for free?

just dont tell you did it as jester because its your 20 years client :-)

No, but Yes.......I backed it up to my studio drive, mainly because the information that I recorded was pretty vaulable, in my mind, and "I" wanted the info to review later(Real Estate strategies). So the backup was for personal gain. But I charged them $50/hour to burn the discs.

They even asked me, when I was finished, if I'd be interested in negotiating a lower rate for future projects, as an "exchange" for knowledge. Then they said, "we have some recording gear".....and I calmly declined. I figured I was already ahead, in that everyone else paid $1500 to sit there and take notes, and they paid me $3000 to listen and record.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey Guys,  I do around 160 commercial days a year and my producers still feel more comfortable with a DAT for telecine. I know that will all change very soon when the commersial post houses catchup with the rest of the community.

So, here is the skinny. I've been backing up a DAT with a DAT for many years. You see, It's all about peace of mind (for the producer) and economics (for me). I charge $20 per DAT Master and $20 for DAT backups. No questions asked. With an average of 2 masters and 2 backups per day (640 DATs per year) that's an additional $6,400 per year in DAT backups alone. Take the additional $4,800 after expences and go to the Carib for GODs sake...you diserve it!

PS: I just purchased a 702Tfor back up, but that's another story.

G$$

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Hey G$$, Just curious, What market do you work in? @ 160 days a year it sounds like L.A.. If thats the case then telecine shouldn't be a problem.

Just wondering.

Regards, Old School

Hey Old School,  I do work in LA mostly recording commercials and the occasional Network promo. My commercial producers still prefer DAT for telecine. At the present I have integrated a 702T into my rig as the "backup" for the DAT master.  Like most mixers, I never considered running a backup for my Nagra recordings. It was when we started using DATs that the majority of the commercial producers started requesting a backup. I generally listen in the confidence mode anyway so, believe me when I say this, I didn't feel the need to backup anything! It made them (producers) feel better. OK, so I'll run a backup and charge em...Fine:-)

Anyway, all is good. I believe I will be running two machines from now on. I'm a little cautious with the new HD and CF recording mediums. How about you?

Take Care...G$$

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For me, I don't actually run a backup (yet) on set, but I do keep a back up of all audio I capture. I throw it on DVD's and stuff it in one of those CD books that holds 200 or so CD's, and there it sits.  If someone needs something from the backup, they pay (has only happened once), but the cost to me is negligible, I don't offer a backup service per say (then I would have to get into insurance, and safekeeping issues that I don't want to deal with, because if someone pays you to keep a backup, you have to keep it securely).  All of the producers I work with know I keep the backups, but that is usually as far as it goes.

Phil

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i moved into the nonlinear age about 6 months ago when i got a 744. the first time i used it was actually on a job where i was still mastering on and turning in dat tapes, i ran it in parallel to the dat for my own use only to get used to it before i needed it as my sole recorder - i have never run a back up system either on dat or hard drive. the main reason for not ever running a back up system was initially i guess cost, production would never pay for the extra gear so i never supplied it, and be it by chance or design, never needed it. i did always carry a non t.c dat in the truck incase the pd4 went down but from memory never used it for that purpose. now i'm on my third job using the 744 as the sole rec and am more than happy having no back up. i rec to the hard drive and flash card, burn a disc each day and also back up the hard drive to a lacie about once a month. no problems so far. i've done a few jobs with a hired pd6 also and again used no back up with no problems. king kong was rec on an hhb portadrive (main) and pd6 (2nd) also with no back ups. i don't know of any mixers over here who have run an on set back up system apart short periods when they're changing over to a new system. if i had to run a back up i'd use a 744 or 722 though, the machine is a little legend and leaves the dat for dead. when the time comes i'll probably go to a meta-corder cart rig and keep the 744 for the bag stuff, (not for back up!). 4 tracks is quite enough for now though.

c.

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On commercials at least, all the telecine places I've spoken with this year (all in LA) now say they PREFER non-linear files for telecine, for all the reasons hashed out on RAMPS over the years, but mostly because it is faster for them now.  When I can I still run a DAT too (like when I'm on a cart), but the telecine places have made their preference very clear.  Soon (I  hope) the backup recorder will be non-linear too.  Nowadays, if I can only run one machine (like working alone and booming), it is the NL recorder.

Philip Perkins

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G$$ your lucky your producers know anything about sound, or think they do. The people I work with are by n large nice people, and do a good job producing, but they don't know dick about sound recording for film.  I guess they figure thats my job. Besides, all the time they spend talking on their cell phones during the takes doesn't leave much time to learn the basics of production sound. Am I bitter,  naw, I love living the dream. As Phillip Perkins points out, telecine prefers DVD files because they can do their job faster, book more jobs, etc., so not so sad to say, one of my hhb's sits next to my nagras in my home studio collecting dust. I do keep one in my Eurovan in case I need it for something, but I haven' seen it for 2 yrs... As for back up, the deva hd recording is there until I copy it to a lacie drive I have in my studio, the DVD-Ram goes to telecine and to editorial, and then to who knows where. As for the copy I keep, I have never used it, but I hate to toss anything out. I guess you could say old school is a pack rat.

Regards,

Old School

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Hi OLd School,

You, Philip and others have made some good points. I didn't mean to lead you guys on that my producers know anything about sound. My bad! Great bunch of people for the most part but, they don't even know what they don't even know. And besides, you all know the drill, if they get burnt once with nonlinear or even hear of a rumor of one of their cronies in the next cubacle getting burnt they hold on to that info like an ageing elephant. It's happened to a few of my Pals. In the mean time, I need to be a little more educated at NL recording before I can teach the non-teachable.

So, What I did reciently was to purchase the SD 702T until I get used to burning product in BWF and then I'll retire the trusty old DAT for good. I guess one could say I'm a little in the "Dark Ages" or maybe even sort of..."Old SchooL".

All the Best,

G$$

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  • 3 weeks later...

I love the fact that after recording sound for some 30 years we suddenly found ourselves in the less than envious position of having to duplicate our work on set.  They don't roll two cameras in case one of them fails. 

No, but they certainly keep a second (if not a third) camera on the truck.  On top of that, I for one have certainly seen my share of pink slips get handed out when one of those cameras fails and production finds out about it after the fact.  Production has rarely ever asked me to roll a backup -- I've always done so out of my own accord.  I hope it is NEVER needed and COMPLETELY useless.

.02

What is interesting to me is that there still is no standard.  Mark Ulano wrote an interesting story in the Location Sound newsletter, in it he states that he turns in DAT tapes for telecine and sends his DVD-RAM to sound editiorial.  I was frankly surprised that at this time he is sending DAT tapes in for processing.

This has also been my workflow for the better part of the past two years.  It's solved a lot of problems and it is not terribly important that a picture editor, cutting on an Avid with a mono mix track, gets 24 bit sound coming out of his little computer speakers.  Since it is all going to get conformed anyway to the master recordings, whether or not what we used to call the "work track" on the Steenbeck comes from RAM or DAT seems sort of irrelevant.  The one vulnerability I can see is that some projects may try to OMF the work track, in which case sound editorial would end up with the 16-bit DAT version instead of the 24-bit NLR version.  To this end I am going to change my workflow starting with the next project and submit DVD-RAM to telecine.  The recorder writes to two separate devices, but I will continue to roll a backup on a third device, just in case said recorder goes kaput.  Production will not ask me for it and other sound mixers will survive without it successfully. 

Regards,

Noah Timan

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First of all, your concerns about having to do backup work at the end of the day indicates that it isn't clear yet WHY a backup is needed and what is its nature.

I think everyone is doing something different regarding the whole issue of backup and hopefully there will be some other answers here. My main point is that one need not automatically assume that a backup routine involving a separate recorder and a separate deliverable is needed.

As much as we can all appreciate our host's success with the Deva, and the success of many other contributors of this group and contributors on RAMPS, if your Deva machine or whatever recorder has a failure for whatever reason and won't power up or operate properly, you may find yourself in the uncomfortable position of not being able to produce media to sync dailies.  (If the camera dies, one can still take the mag off and download the film into a can).  That media may be eventually recoverable by repairing the machine or removing the hard drive and sending the files elsewhere, but whether or not that will be a satisfactory solution for your clients depends upon their patience.  I appreciate and recognize that there have been few (if any) reported failures like this with the Deva, but nonetheless I still think it's prudent (and not terribly expensive) to buss files to a second device so they are accessible in the event of unforseen tragedy.  Doing so should not be a commentary on the vulnerability of one's machine, just a careful and prudent nature given the pitfalls of recording and working on location in varied conditions and transportation.

Regards,

Noah Timan

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This issue of backup and who pays for it has been hashed out many times on RAMPS over the years.  My feeling is that if it is relatively easy and doesn't  involve a lot of wear and tear, then why not, I mean what excuse could I offer for not doing it?  Even if the backup is w/o TC the audio will still be retrieveable, and this HAS been a very good thing to have done several times over the years, either due to pilot error or loss of media or equipment failure.  Some people are very adamant that they will not do this unless they are paid, that it is the producer's problem.  That seems weird to me.

Philip Perkins

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I run my Deva V with no back-up of any kind (media or recorder) except for a second drive in it's caddy.

The Deva refused to record once (two months ago). A reboot didn't cured it. I swapped disks and continue recording.

The bad disk mirrored OK to DVD-RAM. It was a suspicious disk since I bought it, so I just trashed it and bought a new hard disk for that caddy.

It was good that the Deva refused to get into record on that disk: it preserved the rest of the data (I didn't mirrored it yet, ahem...!)

I have a small 40GB bus-powered LaCie pocket drive in wich I (usually) mirror before burning the DVD-RAM

I just bought an Edirol R-09 that I could use with a SD 302 mixer as a front-end in case the Deva is damaged in some way (It may be substituted by a ZFR100 when it cames out since it would have the added benefit of TC jamming and maybe direct lavalier connection... let's see. The R09 will stay anyway since it's great for concealed and/or dangerous missions)

I will eventually get something like a 702T or even a 744T as a back-up, but I guess it will stay in my home to be a real back up and then use the R09 to finish the day... A good backup should not be in the same place as the main recorder, or it would be prone to the same cause of dissaster... (?)

But I won't run the recorder at the same time as my Deva... I ask my Deva to make my life easier so I'm not going to complicate it.

Anyhow I'd like to record to a second media on the Deva. A removable flash memory for no added weight or power consumption.

This would be great IMHO. Not only as a back-up for the hard disk but as a main disk for high vibration or extreme cold or heat.

I guess we'll see quite soon flash disks of 60 and more GB that will replace our current hard ones. Two of them would need less power than our current mechanic ones. I hope they'll be reliable enough for our application.

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In response to Noah Timan's comments.

I have always carried a back up recorder with me, I started my career with a mono Nagra 4.2, this was the only recorer "on set" we always carried an additional recorder "just in case."  Then on to the Nagra IVTSC, and again it was the only "on set" recorder with a back up awaiting service in the truck.  Then came DAT recorders with their dubious performance and the need arose to roll two machines to insure you would have sound for any particular scene.  Even at this point I still carried with us on the truck my trusty Nagra 4.2, in the event of catastrophic failure we could carry on.  I have never had a machine fail on me, knock on wood, although I have suffered some pretty bad operator error mishaps.  I have never experienced anyone being fired for a machine failing on set.

Hi Rich, thanks for your thoughts.  I went through all the same machines you did, with about the same experience, although I am certain that I am younger than you and put in many less years with the Nagra 4.2 than you did.  Early on, after a couple of early-model DAT failures made me nervous, I would back up my DAT machines (not while recording, just on the truck) with one of the Nagras that was my principal (I had a 4.2, a Neil Stone mono TC version, and a Harvey STC at different points in time).  After I got the PD-4, which I found to be a tremendously reliable machine, I gave up on that and backed up on another DAT machine.  In eleven or twelve years of recording films on DAT I had *very* few machine failures.  I don't think the PD-4 ever went down when we did not force it to (see below), but its predecessor did on several famous occasions.  For that matter, so did the Nagra a few times, even though its legend foretold it not to.  Unfortunately, unlike yourself, I have seen people get fired for both camera and sound machine failures in the field, on several occasions.

In regard to your comments of your DAT recordings being the same as a "work track" of years past.  In the days of physically editing picture and sound there were many other reasons for doing what we now refer to as a "reconform."  Film sound was printed on reclaimed stock, meaning this was salvaged from somewhere and spliced together washed and restriped.  During the editing process this sound film would get abused fromt he constant stopping and starting of the editing machines, sprockets would be torn, new splices would be added, and in some instances the track could become magnetized from either the splicer or the heads on the editing system.  So after all of this abuse, it was necessary to reprint the sound and clean up the track. 

"Same same but different", as they like to say in India, with regards to this age.  No, no one is putting splicing tape and grease pencil on the mag any more -- but they are still "abusing" our sound by running it through unnecessary D/As of questionable quality and back again, performing 16-bit non-dithered hard truncations to get the files to the 16-bit Avid standard (and sometimes utilizing some terrifyingly poor outboard gear to do so), adding and subtracting isos at will, not necessarily referencing the original recordings in the EDL, and then OMF-ing the whole mess for delivery to the post department without regard to the masters.  So, just like in the days of old, it is still necessary to "reprint" the sound and clean up the track, if in a less literal way.

If it's been your experience, to have your sound completely reconformed on all your shows, I believe you to be the exception and not the rule.  At the least, this has not been my experience in my career.  On the shows that Mark Ulano works, he can rest assured that there will be the time for a reconform.

I don't know Mark personally, so I can't comment on his experiences.  No, not every show gets the benefit of a conform.  I have done a limited amount of episodic television work and that stuff NEVER gets a conform.  It depends upon the project.  Many (but certainly not ALL) of the features do get this, because the tracks have been "delivered" on many shows in terrible form, for reasons noted above.   My previous post noted my recent process of rolling a 16-bit mono mix on DAT for dailies and picture editorial to use as a "work track" (some editors don't want anything else in the timeline but an Avid-friendly 16-bit mono mix), but I also rolled 24-bit multitrack splits of everything, as well as a 24-bit version of the mix that went through better ADs than the DAT version did.  I haven't followed every picture I've done in this format throughout every step of the post chain, but I'd be rather shocked if the sound editorial team found those lower resolution mixes agreeable enough for a final product or chose to (and got approval to) ADR rather than use all of the splits so clearly delineated in the format of the sound reports and delivered on multiple media.  I already saw material in one film that was recorded this way that clearly utilized the splits, as the tracks are obviously not ADR and obviously not the mix that was performed (which I remembered). 

I'm not sure I understand your analogy of the camera failing and the camera crew being able to salvage the work by downloading the mag.  If your recorder fails, wether it be a DAT recorder or a non linear recorder, the issue still remains one of getting the "hard drive" or "DAT tape" out of the machine.  I am only familiar with the Deva, and if the machine fails you can unplug the hard drive and plug it into another machine and playback the take.  If a DAT recorder is your main recorder, this can really be a mess trying to extract a DAT tape from the machine and still maintain the integrity of the cassette. 

Every recorder is different and now we have about a dozen different ones out there that are as likely to be on the average set as not.  Including the still-used standard DAT machines, there are five machines being regularly used by Fostex and HHB alone.  There are four Sound Devices machines now, two Devas (the II and the IV/V) still in use, several computer software platforms, the Cantar, on and on.  I even know of a couple mixers still using Nagras (where it was always quite simple to get the tape out if the machine died, g-- bless it!)  With the DAT machines it was usually just a matter of screwdrivers and careful fingers.  Some machines have a user-accessible internal HD and some don't.  But the bigger issue than how to access the media is knowing that the media even exists in the first place.  If a recorder locks up on you while you're in the middle of the take, it scarcely matters if you can remove whatever removable media is available if there's nothing written to that media (or what is written to that media is corrupt).

I was merely talking about my history in the sound world, and how it's changed in regard to recording and the need for us to roll a secondary recorder to ensure our work.  My point was that this is not something invoked on the camera department, they still operate as usual. 

Our camera brothers and sisters have their own hornets' nests of issues to contend with that they once never had to think about -- having to run video assist themselves when production doesn't budget for it (and I've seen this on several different budget levels), having to constantly be ready to run two or three cameras and hire crews for those cameras at the upteenth hour, and so on and so forth. 

I do agree it's no big deal to send an incoming signal to two recorders, but why?

Why, to cover your ass, of course.  If you feel suitably covered with your one Deva and nothing else, rock on with your bad self.  I'm not waving a finger and discouraging you.  Like I said above, in many years with DAT I experienced very few DAT failures -- maybe four or five if that -- in a decade, and probably two of those were not the machine's fault.  For all the fire and brimstone about how unreliable DAT was, there are many of us out there who had good success with that format.  I am glad it has gone away since the new format offers greater fidelity and flexibility and a vastly improved workflow, but it isn't as though I was constantly rolling with chattering teeth with my DAT machine either, and to be honest, I'm more suspect of either NLR machine on my cart failing than I was of my PD4.  (Yes, I know, that all goes away with the Deva for many, but an essential Deva function failure scared me away from that machine when I tried it).  Maybe I was just exceptionally lucky, although I know of several other very lucky DAT users who put both the Fostex and HHB to work.  At any rate (and to get away from digressions), it's like I tell many of the first time directors that I work with when there's a debate about rolling a non-dialogue shot MOS -- "It's always easier to throw it away later if you don't need it than it is to create it later if you do."  If they never need the backups, well, that's the way I'd prefer it.  Now that the backup doesn't even really cost much in the way of media it's an even more convincing argument to me.

In regard to charging for a back up, I always charge for media and it ends there. 

Whether or not and what you charge is not really the point -- that's one's own business (literally).  Personally, I'd hate to be sitting there with my arms crossed at my cart with a recorder on it in belly-up condition, saying "Well, gee, you should have listened to me in prepro when I told you to pay for a backup and you said no".  Any number of reasonable arguments can be made on both sides of that fence.  What it boils down to is whether or not you want to and whether or not it's a major expense and inconvenience.  Just like everyone might arrive with different equipment and backups for that equipment, everyone makes their own decision whether and how to back up their media.  I wasn't trying to drop the gauntlet and make proclamations on how it should be done forevermore -- it's hardly my place.

Regards,

Noah Timan

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