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Next level on-camera microphone in M/S


kavenzmann

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When you use an m/s top mic on your camera, and the audio is used in the final edited output, is it used on it's own or is it mixed with someone talking (eg someone recorded on a radio mic/boom - maybe at another time)? I assumed it was used in this way, perhaps erroneously :-)

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Further tests:

The cardoid has a high output compared to my other mics. I'd say the off axis response sounds pretty natural. Noise floor is good enough that I only hear the noise of my cheap preamps (Zoom H6), it sounds better on my Audient iD4 though.

Handling noise can be a problem. It's definitely on the sensitive side for an on-camera mic. A Rycote Inv7 MKIII should help here.
In terms of wind reduction I'll need to invest, too.
It's too short for a softie - Kortwich proposed a baby ball gag for the M/S combo with the Kortwich 8.

In my ears the Kortwich 8 sounds very nice together with the Kortwich cardoid.
But still, the 8 itself has a much higher noise floor and lacks on low frequency side.

What do you think?

The whole combo of Kortwich Cardoid Pro + Kortwich 8 incl. special cables, BBG and shockmount would be approx. 1500€.

After the project I'd put the combo in a full basket and use it for serious stereo athmo seperated from the camera.

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36 minutes ago, kavenzmann said:

In my ears the Kortwich 8 sounds very nice together with the Kortwich cardoid.
But still, the 8 itself has a much higher noise floor and lacks on low frequency side.

What do you think?

I think

 

i) that very few have tested or used the Kortwich 8 (there is little available about it on line);

 

ii) you have the advantage over most of us in that you have one to hand, so perhaps you could provide details of the mic that are so oddly lacking from Kortwich's website (is it really two cardioid capsules quite widely spaced, as the T-shape and Kortwich's statement that it is 'equally suitable for...L/R stereo' [!] suggests, and, if so, how far apart; what is the connector [the L/R stereo use suggests a 5-pin XLR, but is that the case?]; what is the sensitivity; what is the signal to noise; and what are the dimensions and weight?), and perhaps provide some close-up photos and even some (preferably comparative) samples?

 

iii) this thread is covering some similar ground to a previous thread started by you 2 years ago, where you talked about testing both the Emesser ATE208 and the Kortwich 8. Providing more info as suggested above may help move discussion forward. 

 

Cheers,

 

Roland

 

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I have decided to buy the full M/S-combo made by Kortwich.

I had quite some longer talks with Mr. Oschmann from Kortwich and I'm sure I got some good advice.

The yonly downside for is, that none of the Kortwich mic's have been tested by someone experienced.

So that is kind of new territory.

 

As I'm a camera guy first hand (that's what I studied) and soundguy only because it was very unpopular to be the soundguy "only" when I was studying.

I have been responsible for several feture length docos who have been released in cinemas here in germany, but I'm far from being experienced in that field.

I began using the Senni ME line (ME64/ME66) of microphones 15 years ago - I still have them here, just in case.

 

In 2008 we switched to M/S (Senno MKH418, AudioTechnica BP4029) for most if not all shooting scenarious and the studios who did the mastering were quite impressed with the rich sound they got from us.

These guy are relatively easy to handle on the boom and deliver a mid signal which equals a standard shotgun like the 416 or similar mics.

Downsides are coloured off-axis sound and quite a high noise level from the integrated figure 8. Then, a shotgun is far from ideal as a mid for a nice stereo image.

 

That's when we discovered that there are also more flexible M/S-solutions with seperate mid and side mics.

At the time being the new Sennheiser MKH 8000 series were very well considered to be the new standard in video/tv-productions in germany.

Well, we always thought these mics are not what we wanted them to be with their rich low frequency response.

After playing with those guys for quite a while it was clear that Sennheiser will not release a figure 8 for the MKH 8000 series.

 

Schoeps came into play and delivered the nicest mic's I have ever seen until then.

We got a set of a CMC6 with MK4, MK41 and a CCM MK8 which made the set complete for us.

But the Schoeps M/S was always very prone to handling noise - we had to use a strong low-cut on our SD702 to handle it on a boom.

Later on I always had a small tripod for the M/S-combo with me when the camera did not move.

 

Now, here I am - the Schoeps ar enot mine but I liked them very much despite their sensitivity to handling noise esp. with the MK8.

 

I really hope the Kortwich solution is a perfect compromise between size, sound and cost. At least it seems to be the sweet spot for me.

 

I'll use it in this setup but with the Kortwich Cardoid Pro instead of the Senni:

https://www.shop-ftt.de/de/windshield-rycote-baby-ball-gag-21-mm1

 

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21 minutes ago, kavenzmann said:

I have decided to buy the full M/S-combo made by Kortwich.

 

 

Good to hear that you have made a decision. Are you going to provide any details about the fig 8 mic? Given the dearth of information, this would be a useful contribution.

 

Cheers,

 

Roland

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If you want to do me certein tests with these two mic's I need to be guided.

I have no clue how to test a microphone for other people.

 

My sound equipment is also not really made for this:

- Zoom H6 recorder (mediocre preamps)

- AudioTechnica AT 875R line+gradient on-camera mic

- AudioTechnica BP4029 M/S stereo shotgun

- Sennheiser ME 64/66 SDMs

- Audient iD4 audio interface (1 good preamp only)

- Rycote Softie Lyre mount

- div. foams, Softies and windfurs

 

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13 minutes ago, kavenzmann said:

If you want to do me certein tests with these two mic's I need to be guided.

I have no clue how to test a microphone for other people.

 

 

That's kind of you to offer to test. Given your equipment and experience, I wouldn't spend too much time on testing (although posting a recording with the raw M and S signals might be instructive: something that reveals the higher self noise of the fig 8, which you referred to earlier, might be instructive).

 

Easier to do, however, would be to provide more details of the fig 8 mic, as suggested in an earlier post by me. This would be especially valuable given the paucity of information regarding the mic on Kortwich's own website and more generally on line. Close-up photos of the mic would be helpful.  As mentioned previously, areas of interest include:

 

Is the fig 8 mic really two cardioid capsules quite widely spaced, as the T-shape and Kortwich's statement that it is 'equally suitable for...L/R stereo' [!] suggest?

 

How far apart are the capsules?

 

What is the connector - the L/R stereo use suggests a 5-pin XLR, but is that the case?

 

Can you provide additional specs to the minimal ones on line? E.g. sensitivity, the signal to noise ratio, frequency response graph, dimensions and weight. Some of these may be on a data sheet that came with the mic (I would hope so!) - a photo of that would be informative.

 

Cheers,

 

Roland

 

 

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There's really not much information provided. I'll get a more detailed data sheet with the actual mics that I purchased.

All the data on the website seems to be right. http://www.filmtontechnik.de/en/products-from-kortwich/microphone/

 

Edit: Here's what Kortwich send me:

image001 2.jpg

 

I'd think it's two cardoid capsules.

Depending on the cable you receive either a classic figure of 8 signal or a left/right stereo signal.

 

Here's what it looks like:

DSCF2561.jpg

 

 

The size is 45mm long and approx. 40mm wide

DSCF2563.jpg

DSCF2564.jpg

 

The end of the mic is a standard 3 pin XLR:

DSCF2565.jpg

 

That's what you get with the microphone (pouch is missing on pic)

DSCF2571.jpg

 

 

And this is how it looks mounted on an INV shockmount with the Cardoid Pro

 

DSCF2559.jpg

DSCF2560.jpg

Edited by kavenzmann
Spec Sheet added
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Thanks for all the photos and dimensions. Yes, very clearly back-to-back cardioids, as with the Oktava MK012 fig 8, but less clunky. Rather surprised, given the L/R output option, that it has a standard 3-pin xlr. Do please add any further information from the datasheet you get when the new one you are buying arrives.

 

Interested that you went for this option rather than the better known, MBHO-made, Ambient ATE 208 Emesser, with its more compact form and true single diaphragm, that you were considering previously. Any particular reason? Pricing of the two here in the UK is pretty much identical.

 

Cheers,

 

Roland

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To be honest, there's either not much information on the Emesser, too.

All threads ended before any purchaser made a useful review.

I was able to test the Kortwich Acht a few weeks ago on a friends setup and found it reasonable...

 

I did actualy not make the purchase - only the plan to do so.

If somebody has good infos on the Emesser - that's your time man!

 

Here's a pretty crappy recording I made with my Zoom H6 - gain cranked up to 7/10 (not sure how much db that equals).

The M/S mic is standing on a low table (50cm high) and pointing in the room, where I walk and talk standing in different angles to the mic.

Sorry, it's all crappy and I'm speaking in german...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dcvlulacq0i2m99/Kortwich_M-S-combo_ZoomH6.WAV?dl=0

 

This file will be online just a few days.

I'll do a better test with better preamps soon.

 

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There is a very nice sleeper mike from AKG.  Long discontinued but available used.  The C522 is a rather nice all in one stereo mike.  It was manufactured in two versions, XY and MS with a subset in the XY mode.  There were two XY versions, one with fixed capsules and another with variable capsules.  The MS capsules were fixed.  Single 5-pin connector.

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3 hours ago, kavenzmann said:

To be honest, there's either not much information on the Emesser, too.

All threads ended before any purchaser made a useful review.

 

Here's a pretty crappy recording I made with my Zoom H6 - gain cranked up to 7/10 (not sure how much db that equals).

I'll do a better test with better preamps soon.

 

 

Many thanks for posting the test recording.

 

Goodness, that sounds as if it is a very different frequency response for the fig 8 than the claimed '40 - 20000 Hz +/- 2.5 dB', but that could simply reflect your test: if you are going to do a different test, it would be nice, at some point during the test, to hear your voice, in turn, on axis and the same distance from the S and M mic as you move around and, indeed, any other tests (a piano?) to show any exaggerated bass roll off on the fig 8 mic.

 

The obvious alternative - the Ambient ATE 208 Emesser - certainly lacks much in the way of low frequencies, with its specified +/- 3 dB: 200 - 16,000 Hz response: in this case Ambient sets out the reasons for the bass roll-off (http://ambient.de/en/product/emesser/) and it may be that Kortwich is doing exactly the same. Such bass roll off may be fine in a fig 8 for your purpose, or even a positive, though, for some, it would limit the wider usefulness of the mic (and, thus, an MKH30 would be a much better, though expensive, choice - with many other gains too: RF resistance to humidity, lower noise etc.)

 

You are right that there are no obvious thorough reviews of the ATE 208 Emesser, though there are plenty of positive comments on this forum (e.g.

) and elsewhere (e.g. from John Willet).

 

Cheers,

 

Roland

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Some if not most of the noise in my recordings are produced from the Zoom H6 preamps.

They are not really top of the amps...

 

It's a very different noisefloor if I use the really good preamps of my Audient iD4 audio interface.

I don't think noise is gonna be a problem with this setup.

Later this year I'll buy one of the MixPres which are pretty much what I ever wanted.

It's just not possible at the time being.

 

I also plan to buy a second Kortwich cardoid to have a nice and small ORTF stereo setup.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/25/2018 at 8:56 AM, ramallo said:

With a 4ch camera, IMMO the way to go in 2018 is a ambisonic A mic, you can post-process for eliminate noises and focus the sound to the interesting part of image

 

Bold choice! You'd need to very carefully set up the camera so each channel has exactly the same amount of gain applied 

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