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On 5/3/2018 at 12:59 AM, IronFilm said:

When the limiter of the F8/F8n is activated for a channel it automatically cuts 10 dB of gain from the analog preamp. That 10 dB is automatically added back after the AD converter. This is a way we build an extra 10 dB of headroom to avoid clipping over the already high dynamic range (A/D Converter has 120 dB dynamic range, with limiter effective dynamic range is 130 dB

In the past I tested the Limiter of the F4 (which should be the same as on the F8) and the dynamic range did not increase when the limiter was engaged. As expected, it merely shifts the dynamic range upwards a bit. Depending on the gain setting you do get at least 10db more headroom but of course the noise floor of the ADC also rises by 10dB. So, overall the dynamic range stays the same.

 

At 2:55 you can see the noise measurements if you are interested:

 

 

That said, an ADC with 120dB dynamic range is already very good and will be sufficient for the most recording situations.

 

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16 hours ago, chrismedr said:

sure, if you apply 10dB attenuation to your 130dB scream then it will record fine at 120dB, but at the same time everything that happened in the 1-10dB range is pushed below 0dB and therefore lost forever - applying digital gain will not bring back up any signal that was never sampled to start with. in other words a 10dB attenuation would allow for higher max levels, but not for higher dynamic range because you essentially just shift which 120dB you're recording.

 

 

That is not how -10dB works. 
 

These are logarithmic changes applied, not linear. So that doesn't mean you're left with nothing at all. It is just a weaker signal, not a non-existent signal that is "lost forever". 
 

6 hours ago, JayKay said:

Depending on the gain setting you do get at least 10db more headroom but of course the noise floor of the ADC also rises by 10dB. So, overall the dynamic range stays the same.


But on this point I'm inclined to agree, if the signal becomes so weak it is near the level of the noise floor then it can indeed become "lost". 

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21 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

That is not how -10dB works. 
These are logarithmic changes applied, not linear. So that doesn't mean you're left with nothing at all. It is just a weaker signal, not a non-existent signal that is "lost forever". 

 

well, true as long as we live in a logarithmic world and would sample at ultra high bit depth and avoid all noise issues of electronic circuits. that's not how recorders work though.

 

if the 120dB in the ADC is correct we can assume a 20bit ADC - which means a bit over 1'000'000 values to store the loudest to the quietest sound. afaik all commonly used ADC work in linear domain, that means the top 6dB (120dB to 114dB) will get about 500'000 code values (1048575-524288), while the quietest sounds (0dB-6dB) will get exactly 2 code values (0-1).

 

I simply can't see a way how you would recover 10dB more squeezed into these two code values.

chris

 

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Was really hoping they'd change the buttons where the writing rubs off/fades and the painted blue strap bars that chip and flake (why not use that lovely anodised blue metal you have on top and bottom?). Only cosmetic issues but I experienced both after only a few weeks of use.

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The half of the word "menu" is worn off on my Zoom F4, but otherwise I'd say it is holding up very well from constant regular usage. 

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What I would hope for (or possibly 'would have hoped for'?) on an update of the F8 would principally be a digital I/O (AESEBU preferably or SPDIF or both) and a cascade link to sync and operate two or more of them together. (A digi IO would of course enable it to be synched easily to another suitably equipped machine, and for many of 'us' pro sound users that might be our 'A' recorder, like a SD 7 series or whatever).

 

The only other obvious updates would be open mic/line selection between the XLR and TRS inputs, a choice of pro and consumer line for the inputs and ditto for the outputs.

 

Oddly, in this era of the Zoom 4/8 and the MixPre 3/6/10, grabbing a cheap second hand Tascam DR680 as a synchable B recorder begins to look tempting for cheap (occasional) high track counts ... bring in the digital sync please Zoom!

 

Jez

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4 minutes ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

What I would hope for (or possibly 'would have hoped for'?) on an update of the F8 would principally be a digital I/O (AESEBU preferably or SPDIF or both) and a cascade link to sync and operate two or more of them together. (A digi IO would of course enable it to be synched easily to another suitably equipped machine, and for many of 'us' pro sound users that might be our 'A' recorder, like a SD 7 series or whatever).

 

Oddly, in this era of the Zoom 4/8 and the MixPre 3/6/10, grabbing a cheap second hand Tascam DR680 as a synchable B recorder begins to look tempting for cheap (occasional) high track counts ... bring in the digital sync please Zoom!

 

Oh! Good point there (I used to have 2x DR680 that I could run together). I should add that to my blog post. 
Certainly many people are already picking up an F8/F4 as a secondary extra recorder, and this feature would make it even more useful for that purpose. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

The only other obvious updates would be open mic/line selection between the XLR and TRS inputs, a choice of pro and consumer line for the inputs and ditto for the outputs.


Yup, most of that Zoom has said they're already implementing for the F8n. 

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4 hours ago, Glyn said:

Any mention of it at Cinegear

Nope. I don't think Cinegear is the kind of event Zoom would usually go to?
The F8n is meant to be out in July, although I've heard even June (now!) is a possibility. 
There are users (non-Zoom employees) out there already using the F8n for tests. 
So the day the F8n will be available to the wider public is likely very soon.

I'm feeling pretty certain about buying one myself, but will wait for the official announcement first. 

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I wrote a very long list (my longest blog post ever!) of things I'd like to see (or dream of seeing... some might be unrealistic!) in the new upcoming Zoom F8n:
Waaaay too long list to list it all again here, but a few random points selected:
Audio waveforms
Metadata edit/shortcut via the PFL key
Linked safety track (thus as you adjust gain on the main track, the safety does this automatically as well)
Show the diff of external vs internal TC when compared together
An updated Zoom EXH-6 with locking XLR connections (and the F8n being able to use the Zoom EXH-6 to record 10 channels in total, rather than lose tracks 1/2 to it).
Integration with Timecode Systems :wave
Able to use a USB keyboard without needing the Zoom FRC-8 as all at the same time, or even better, use bluetooth keyboards?
Automatic clearing of peak indicators (so I don't need to do this myself after every slating).
B format decoding for the new Rode NT-SF1

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Now available for pre-order, for release in July 2018. Zoom published a product page.

 

The headlining new features: Advanced Look-Ahead Hybrid Limiters, Zoom AutoMix, mic/line options for both XLR and TRS inputs.

 

F8n_front.jpg

F8n_Rear.jpg

F8n_Left.jpg

F8n_Right.jpg

 

Image of the bottom of the unit. (I may have edited this post one too many times and I can’t upload the image.)

 

 

 

 

Some official dealers in the United States (dealers with online pre-ordering in bold):

 

Edited by Daniel Ignacio
Added features list, product photos, videos, dealer links.

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Zoom won't have moved backwards from the F8 I am sure. And the F8's was on par with say the typical Sound Devices' preamps as well
 

Interestingly, I see that Zoom is also launching a new PCF-8n bag alongside the new F8n as well. This is a good thing, as I feel the original F8 bag was a flawed product, that even the F4 bag was an improvement upon. (but even the F4 bag wasn't perfect, and is why I upgraded from it) You can see a hint of what the new bag is in this pic here (for instance that zipper and velcro to split the two segments apart is new):

 

image.png

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5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And the F8's was on par with say the typical Sound Devices' preamps as well

 

Just curious how you arrived at that conclusion?

 

and which preamps are your typical Sound Devices preamps? They’re all pretty different 

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15 minutes ago, Constantin said:

 

Just curious how you arrived at that conclusion?

 

and which preamps are your typical Sound Devices preamps? They’re all pretty different 

When the F8 came out 3 years ago we tested the F8 against the SD 552, 442 & 302, Zaxcom Nomad & Maxx and a couple of others that I can't recall. While not a scientific lab controlled test to be sure with an MKH 50 as the test mic, the concensus was the F8 was equal in sound to the 442 and they were tied for 1st place with the 552 running a close 2nd then the rest of the field.

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1 hour ago, Eric Toline said:

When the F8 came out 3 years ago we tested the F8 against the SD 552, 442 & 302, Zaxcom Nomad & Maxx and a couple of others that I can't recall. While not a scientific lab controlled test to be sure with an MKH 50 as the test mic, the concensus was the F8 was equal in sound to the 442 and they were tied for 1st place with the 552 running a close 2nd then the rest of the field.

 

Really? Interesting. Especially compared to the newer preamps of the Nomad and Maxx, those are pretty quiet. 

The „newer“ offerings from SD, such as 788 or 688 would have been interesting, but still this is not a bad field

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1 hour ago, Constantin said:

 

Really? Interesting. Especially compared to the newer preamps of the Nomad and Maxx, those are pretty quiet. 

The „newer“ offerings from SD, such as 788 or 688 would have been interesting, but still this is not a bad field

It's kind of hard to beat a mixer with a ton of iron transformers.

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BH did a comparison inbetween a 688 and a F8. Listen and judge for yourself. I feel like they wanted to pitch that the F8 sounded as good as the 6 series (and I really wanted it to when I heard the test as I could not afford a SD recorder when the mixpre was not out yet, but I would be lying to myself if I did not think the zoom sounded a bit more brittle in the upper midrange so I held of getting the f4).

 

 

Curtis Judd did a comparison later on when the mixpre series came out, inbetween mixpre6/633/f8 and to my ears f8 had once again a more midrangy sound. The best bass response was probably the 633 and to me the mixpre6 was on par with the 633 with slightly less bass and felt almost more natural. So for me, I prefer the preamps on 6, 7 and mixpre series compared to the zoom. This is ofcourse my own opinion, but it is one of the main reasons I picked a mixpre6 over an f4, which in other respects makes more sense.

Interesting to see automix on the new f8 and better hp amp sounds like a good addition!

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Yes the various SD pre amps are all a little different but broadly we can say they're kinda similar. No one would fire you for say using the 552 pre amps instead of the 688 pre amps (assuming the 552 was an appropriate choice in the first place, perhaps it is just a simple boom straight to camera). And we can probably agree the F8 is in the that same broad category with the rest, in that it has top notch pre amps. And if we dig into the details that is splitting hairs or even just subjective. 

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5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And we can probably agree the F8 is in the that same broad category with the rest, in that it has top notch pre amps. And if we dig into the details that is splitting hairs or even just subjective. 

Really? Make yourself a favour, be objective. While being totally usable, is totally unfair saying that they are in the same category. I have used/heard extensively all them for both music and dialog recording, and they didn't sound the same by any means. It's not an opinion, it's a fact, and when you get in a studio with real monitor system you will notice it immediately. I would love to buy a 1000 $ recorder that equals a 5000 $ one, but this machine doesn't exist yet.

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"Interesting to see automix on the new f8 and better hp amp sounds like a good addition!"

Yes, 'automix' hopefully makes up for the 8 small faders and the HP needed upgrading, hopefully this includes the 'monitor selector'.

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