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2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

if you choose to bring your 633 or you choose to bring your Cantar X3 then you're going to get exactly the same "basic kit rental" for it

 

How would anyone get a return on investment on a Cantar then?

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50 minutes ago, AnuarYahya said:

Right now what is saving us is that there is no affordable wireless that are any good

Something is in the work for that already;

 

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It seems they finally have a pro level field mixer/recorder.
 
And now the dreaded question: MixPre 10T or Zoom F8N ? 🙂
 
They both seem to have a very similar set of features.
So the few remaining questions are comparison of :
- audio quality,
- headphones output quality,
- limiters efficiency
- usage as an audio interface to record musical instruments
 
I was going to buy a MP 10T but I hold on my purchase, because frankly, its ergonomics is awkward
- the SD card slot is not easily accessible
- the hirose pin at an angle is prone to break eventually, hence the need to buy the SD-1 sled adaptor to have one properly positioned on the back of the MixPre. That's 100 bucks more.
- the NP-F batteries caddy shape is the worst thing ever so it's a no no.
 
The zoom does not have those issues, seems to have great ergonomics and is lesser than half the price !
I don't mind paying for an expensive good product.
Sure it won't be perfect, but when it's awkward it's another story.
Especially when there are possibly better and cheaper options.
 
So if the Zoom proves to be on par with the SD MixPre audio quality wise, the problem reduces to brand notoriety. Because unfortunately, I find that there are still some production companies who would not allow you to use such a product ONLY because it's not SD, or Zaxcom.
What's your experience on this guys?

 

 
 

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2 hours ago, ronfya said:

there are still some production companies who would not allow you to use such a product ONLY because it's not SD, or Zaxcom.

I have yet to find one who is challenging me on that. I think it's more a "we don't want a zoom H4 guy" kinda thing. Nobody ever asked me what microphone is in my Zeppelin or what recorder I'm using. They give me a requirement-list (Boom, 2 lavs, Timecode, IFB, that sort of list) and they 'trust' me how and with what I will how up. Most of my days I am a tracker/recordist, rather than a mixer, so for a lot of gigs the F8(n) does it perfectly fine. If you need to mix, it can be done (without the optional fader panel) but it is a bit clunky. Think of it as a bit better than a SD 788t without the rotary faders.

 

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34 minutes ago, Vincent R. said:

I have yet to find one who is challenging me on that. I think it's more a "we don't want a zoom H4 guy" kinda thing. Nobody ever asked me what microphone is in my Zeppelin or what recorder I'm using. They give me a requirement-list (Boom, 2 lavs, Timecode, IFB, that sort of list) and they 'trust' me how and with what I will how up. Most of my days I am a tracker/recordist, rather than a mixer, so for a lot of gigs the F8(n) does it perfectly fine. If you need to mix, it can be done (without the optional fader panel) but it is a bit clunky. Think of it as a bit better than a SD 788t without the rotary faders.

 

 

I have certainly been asked for my gear list. Many times. Savvy PMs/LPs know what to look for and can spot an experienced crew member by their resume + equipment. G3s and Zooms are red flags to them. And, quite frankly, I don’t blame them. 

 

In fact, I always ask other mixers what gear they use and have not hired/recommended some if they can’t match my gear. 

 

Cheers,

Evan Meszaros

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5 minutes ago, hobbiesodd said:

 

I have certainly been asked for my gear list. Many times. Savvy PMs/LPs know what to look for and can spot an experienced crew member by their resume + equipment. G3s and Zooms are red flags to them. And, quite frankly, I don’t blame them. 

 

Cheers,

Evan Meszaros

That's exactly what I am talking about.

 

Some brands have established (legitimately or not, that's another discussion) so much recognition in the industry that they are more often than not the "only" choice for high level projects. Even with very high quality products.

 

Recording vocals?  Only high level choice is a Neumann U87

Shooting a feature blockbuster ? Only camera possible is an Arri Alexa

 

On the other side, some brands (like Zoom) still fight against an history of average consumer grade products, even though clearly a lot of water flowed under the bridge and they currently have products perfectly capable of handling pro level prods.

 

This problem is unfortunately a reality to take into account when investing in gear since it exists at every level of the industry (be it at different intensities).

 

Cause frankly, since the F8n and the MixPre 10T seem very comparable, I am very tempted by investing in a F8n instead of a MixPre 10T because of the awkward ergonomics of the latter regarding power options. And the only reason I would go for the SD, is brand recognition.

 

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2 hours ago, ronfya said:

That's exactly what I am talking about.

 

Some brands have established (legitimately or not, that's another discussion) so much recognition in the industry that they are more often than not the "only" choice for high level projects. Even with very high quality products.

 

Recording vocals?  Only high level choice is a Neumann U87

Shooting a feature blockbuster ? Only camera possible is an Arri Alexa

 

On the other side, some brands (like Zoom) still fight against an history of average consumer grade products, even though clearly a lot of water flowed under the bridge and they currently have products perfectly capable of handling pro level prods.

 

This problem is unfortunately a reality to take into account when investing in gear since it exists at every level of the industry (be it at different intensities).

 

Cause frankly, since the F8n and the MixPre 10T seem very comparable, I am very tempted by investing in a F8n instead of a MixPre 10T because of the awkward ergonomics of the latter regarding power options. And the only reason I would go for the SD, is brand recognition.

 

A lot of misconceptions and non-truths in there, bub.

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2 hours ago, ronfya said:

That's exactly what I am talking about.

 

Some brands have established (legitimately or not, that's another discussion) so much recognition in the industry that they are more often than not the "only" choice for high level projects. Even with very high quality products.

 

Recording vocals?  Only high level choice is a Neumann U87

Shooting a feature blockbuster ? Only camera possible is an Arri Alexa

 

On the other side, some brands (like Zoom) still fight against an history of average consumer grade products, even though clearly a lot of water flowed under the bridge and they currently have products perfectly capable of handling pro level prods.

 

This problem is unfortunately a reality to take into account when investing in gear since it exists at every level of the industry (be it at different intensities).

 

Cause frankly, since the F8n and the MixPre 10T seem very comparable, I am very tempted by investing in a F8n instead of a MixPre 10T because of the awkward ergonomics of the latter regarding power options. And the only reason I would go for the SD, is brand recognition.

 

Theres a lot more to SD than brand recognition...  

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Philip Perkins said:

A lot of misconceptions and non-truths in there, bub.

 

Can you tell me more then ?

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30 minutes ago, ronfya said:

 

Can you tell me more then ?

Limiters and for me the actual sound of the recorder. I enjoy sound design and field recording as well, and to my ears SD sounds better without any additional EQ and the limiters gives me a bit more peace of mind. I frequently use a wireless keyboard for notes, tracknames If I was only doing location sound (without mixing) with purely wireless I would consider a zoom. In reality I did not get the F4 even before the mixpre was out for a few reasons, but one of them was a salty feeling from all their handheld recorders from them that has given up on me and friends.

 

Unfortunately neither Zoom or SD is flawless and it seems that both companies does a pretty good job with FW updates. Zoom managed to have a FW update that made the tc bleed into the audio of the recordings and SD have had some unstable releases too (1.53 seems to work fine). If you record any MS, SD will give you more options as well.

 

Ultimately it is all about compromises but that there are a lot of abused 10 year old SD recorders that still does the job should give you some confidence in the brand. (my friends TC out on the F4 recently started to act up)

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4 hours ago, ronfya said:

 

Can you tell me more then ?

Let's start with this:

 

>>Recording vocals?  Only high level choice is a Neumann U87

Shooting a feature blockbuster ? Only camera possible is an Arri Alexa<<<<


Really?  (Not.)

 

Meanwhile: you folks that have decided to maybe drive an F8--just drive on, ok?  Enough self-justification already.  No need to feel dissed because another soundie doesn't agree with your choice, no need to be resentful because some people use equipment that is more expensive than what you have or can afford right now.  Go out there and use the thing, post some files and give us some real-world used-on-a-real-job-for-money reports. 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

Let's start with this:

 

>>Recording vocals?  Only high level choice is a Neumann U87

Shooting a feature blockbuster ? Only camera possible is an Arri Alexa<<<<


Really?  (Not.)

 

Hey man, if you read the industry press (and I am sure you do), it's written in it.

 

About recording vocals, the info is scattered in interviews most often. Still, if you read them regularly, it's not rocket science to figure out that the vast majority of big albums were recorded on U87s.

 

About cameras, you can find the info more easily 

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/01/sundance-2017-cameras-arri-canon-red-sony-1201770071/

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/cameras-and-lenses-behind-2017-oscar-nominated-films/

https://nofilmschool.com/2015/02/which-cameras-were-used-oscar-nominated-films-2015

https://shotonwhat.com/cameras/   Arri: 1627 films  vs Red 427 films (probably not exhaustive, but still that shows a trend)

 

and aside some occasional Red or Pana, it's : Arri, Arri, Arri, Arri, Arri, Arri ...

 

 

5 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

 

Meanwhile: you folks that have decided to maybe drive an F8--just drive on, ok?  Enough self-justification already.  No need to feel dissed because another soundie doesn't agree with your choice, no need to be resentful because some people use equipment that is more expensive than what you have or can afford right now.  Go out there and use the thing, post some files and give us some real-world used-on-a-real-job-for-money reports. 

 

 

 

 

 

The endgame for everybody is doing exactly what you said:  real-world used-on-a-real-job-for-money.

And personally, I have no problem as per se that somebody does not agree with my choice.

I have a problem when that choice discards people based on gear brands reputation ONLY.

 

What I am saying is that in the film industry there is a STRONG bias on gear brands. And brands than don't have a great history record like Zoom seem doomed to stay on the bottom of reputation even if one day they come up with the indisputable best (because it's measurable) product ever.


I am saying that there are not much people ready to say a product is good/bad at something (and accordingly use them or not in prods) REGARDLESS of the brands.

Like the SD MixPre power options are plenty but are all a joke.

And the Zoom F series have much better preamps than we expected from them before that. So much that they can even be considered for high quality jobs now.

 

And since this is a reality we need to play with, I am weighing the fact if I should lean a bit into that (by buying a SD MP 10T instead of a seemingly equally capable F8n) to avoid unnecessary discussions like these when trying to get a job. 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ronfya said:

Hey man, if you read the industry press (and I am sure you do), it's written in it.

 

I'm a big Arri fan, but Guardians was shot on Red, the next three Avatars will be shot on Sony Venice, Mad Max 4 had Canon 5D footage in it, etc etc.

 

But sure, on expensive projects producers might be questioning if a Zoom F8 is the best choice unless you can bring up some convincing arguments (and no, "It was 2000 bucks cheaper then a 633" doesn't qualify except on no/low budget projects). Like if you want to use a 5D for a feature over an Arri, you also need better arguments then "it's 100'000 bucks cheaper" (or a less dramatic example, if you want to use a Venice over an Alexa "it's half the price"). 

 

So the question is will the person hiring you and your kit think you bought it because it was the best gear for the job, or is it because you wanted to save a few bucks. And frankly if you show up with a Zoom F8 and some G3 they usually assume the later (and usually rightly so)

 

 

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2 hours ago, ronfya said:

 

Hey man, if you read the industry press (and I am sure you do), it's written in it. 

 

About recording vocals, the info is scattered in interviews most often. Still, if you read them regularly, it's not rocket science to figure out that the vast majority of big albums were recorded on U87s.


 

So you take your info from the "industry press", as opposed to hard experience?  The U87 may have been the go to vocal mic on sessions you have engineered, but that is very not the case everywhere else I assure you.  There are a lot of choices out there, and part of the studio dance is matching mic to voice.  Often the best match is NOT a U87.  U87s say "high-class recording" in photographs, so they are commonly used as props in staged studio shots for publications and the web.   As for cameras....what do you see on your high-end shoots?  I see plenty of various Arris, but I also see plenty of REDs, and plenty of Sonys.  As with mics it isn't a one-size-fits-all situation in the least: there is a careful balance between the photographic goals of the shoot and budget in play.

 

Re: gear in play vs expectations: in my experience (mostly USA) what gets spec'ed are "capacities", like # of tracks avail, # of wireless channels avail, what sort of backup recording, # of monitor channels, plus more specialized stuff like playback and sync gear.   I don't think I've ever had a discussion that included brands, unless there was something unique needing to be done that required a specific piece of gear.   You may get an askance look from other crew people if you show up with something that is known to be cheap, but if you deliver what production wants how they want it and are fast + trouble free ultimately they don't care, and the other crew people aren't the ones hiring you anyway.   For instance, plenty of very big feature films have had their production sound recorded with $900 Mackie 1604s etc as the front ends.  There is no reason at all why a similar film could not be recorded on an F8 or two if the track count  and monitoring are adequate to the task and the mixer knows what she's doing.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Philip Perkins said:

Re: gear in play vs expectations: in my experience (mostly USA) what gets spec'ed are "capacities", like # of tracks avail, # of wireless channels avail, what sort of backup recording, # of monitor channels, plus more specialized stuff like playback and sync gear.   I don't think I've ever had a discussion that included brands, unless there was something unique needing to be done that required a specific piece of gear. 

Yup, that is what I said/wrote.

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2 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

So you take your info from the "industry press", as opposed to hard experience?  The U87 may have been the go to vocal mic on sessions you have engineered, but that is very not the case everywhere else I assure you.  There are a lot of choices out there, and part of the studio dance is matching mic to voice.  Often the best match is NOT a U87.  U87s say "high-class recording" in photographs, so they are commonly used as props in staged studio shots for publications and the web.   As for cameras....what do you see on your high-end shoots?  I see plenty of various Arris, but I also see plenty of REDs, and plenty of Sonys.  As with mics it isn't a one-size-fits-all situation in the least: there is a careful balance between the photographic goals of the shoot and budget in play.

 

Yeah of course we see various brands here and there. I am just saying there is a clear trend towards a crushing majority of certain products. And because of that, there is a bias in people's minds for requirements.

 

 

2 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

Re: gear in play vs expectations: in my experience (mostly USA) what gets spec'ed are "capacities", like # of tracks avail, # of wireless channels avail, what sort of backup recording, # of monitor channels, plus more specialized stuff like playback and sync gear.   I don't think I've ever had a discussion that included brands, unless there was something unique needing to be done that required a specific piece of gear.   You may get an askance look from other crew people if you show up with something that is known to be cheap, but if you deliver what production wants how they want it and are fast + trouble free ultimately they don't care, and the other crew people aren't the ones hiring you anyway.   For instance, plenty of very big feature films have had their production sound recorded with $900 Mackie 1604s etc as the front ends.  There is no reason at all why a similar film could not be recorded on an F8 or two if the track count  and monitoring are adequate to the task and the mixer knows what she's doing.

 

 

 

This is fair though.

 

 

3 hours ago, chrismedr said:

So the question is will the person hiring you and your kit think you bought it because it was the best gear for the job, or is it because you wanted to save a few bucks. And frankly if you show up with a Zoom F8 and some G3 they usually assume the later (and usually rightly so)

 

 

 

And here is an example of bias.

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1 hour ago, ronfya said:

And here is an example of bias.

But there is some truth to it. I currently use a combination of Sk2000/G3 and while they get the job done on the indie low budget productions I often work with, I have rented lectros a few times and they have so far been sounding a notch better and been way mot reliable.

 

I dont own higher end wireless for the moment, not becouse it is not better, but becouse I can't afford it for the time being.

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32 minutes ago, Mattias Larsen said:

But there is some truth to it. I currently use a combination of Sk2000/G3 and while they get the job done on the indie low budget productions I often work with, I have rented lectros a few times and they have so far been sounding a notch better and been way mot reliable.

 

I dont own higher end wireless for the moment, not becouse it is not better, but becouse I can't afford it for the time being.

 

Of course there is SOME truth to it ! Thankfully !

My issue is when I am facing people who are pretending it's the ONLY truth and who are discarding people based on that.

 

And I completely share the situation you just described !

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The F8 works fine for basic recording, I was an early adopter of the 1st version as a test. Now it sits on a shelf in my gear room as a backup to my SD 688.

If my 688 went down I would have no problem using the F8 until I got it back. Just sayin...

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1 hour ago, dBm said:

The F8 works fine for basic recording, I was an early adopter of the 1st version as a test. Now it sits on a shelf in my gear room as a backup to my SD 688.

If my 688 went down I would have no problem using the F8 until I got it back. Just sayin...

Nice to have Zoom as a back-up to a 6 series. Not sure having a Zoom as back-up to a Zoom would go far though - even if 2 zooms are better than a single 6 series (in terms of redundancy). 

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ronmac, that is the original F8, and I've already seen it go on special for as low as US$650. This isn't at all unusual to see for stock to be cleared before a new product arrives. (They're not going to be selling both the F8n and F8 together, production on the F8 will stop)

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