Zoom F8n.

[Daniel Ignacio]

Timeline of this topic

• April 2018: Soft announcement at NAB 2018 (you are here!)
• May 2018: Discussion of how the look-ahead limiters work
• May 2018: Exhibition at AES International Convention
• June 2018: Pre-orders open, shipping in July

Resources

• Product page
• Manual
• Introduction video from Zoom
• Advanced Hybrid Limiters video from Zoom
• Zoom AutoMix video from Zoom

Original post

 

Looks like Zoom has introduced a sequel to the F8 at NAB. Only info so far is from this post from Production Sound Solutions on Instagram:

 

 

Quote

New for the Zoom F8n
Updated GUI
Selectable line/mic input
New battery slot
Look ahead limiters
Better headphone Amp!

 

And this unconfirmed report from MacintoshEddie on reddit:

 

Quote

…Improved voltage range for Hirose inputs […] Anticipated July delivery with pricing around $1200

 

Edited June 11 by Daniel Ignacio
Added more information. Added timeline and links sections.

[IronFilm]

A Zoom rep is here in this video talking about the Zoom F8n, a "sneak peak":

 

 

 

The recorder is still a few months away ("July"), and details are not yet concrete (price is looking to be twelve hundred dollars). 

[IronFilm]

 

[IronFilm]

 

 

[Jim Feeley]

That's Samuel in the video in post #2. He sometimes posts here as ZoomOfficial. Today's the last day of the NAB trade show, but perhaps in a few days before he can fill us in a bit...

[efksound]

I'd bet anything that, the supposed F8n inside the display cabinet , (that probably no one was allowed to touch during NAB) is just a normal F8 with some different firmware loaded, and displaying some fancy new screen :-)

 

 

[Donald Kauffman]

Are they seriously going to release an updated model that still has consumer level line outs??

[IronFilm]

Where did they say they won't? There are more things they'll change than just what they've said so far. Maybe they'll change that. (fingers crossed)

[Jacob Gustavsson]

I hope the iOS app gets updated too. I wrote Zoom an email a few weeks ago with some thoughts:

 

Quote

 

Hey there!

I've been using your Zoom F8 app for various film productions, and have some thoughts and questions. I really like being able to remote control the F8 through the app. But it's very annoying having to disconnect the app to be able to edit scene and take of a file, which also means having to type it in via the rotary controller on the F8 instead of the virtual keyboard in the app. It can break the flow of production.

 

Some features I would like to see in the app:

1 - Editing scene and take of a file in the finder.

2 - Shortcut to recording or getting to the home screen from the finder/menu.

3 - Confirmation on the app (not just on the F8) when pressing false take/increment scene.

4 - Track naming and display on the mixer.

5 - Track coloring on the mixer (for matching color coded receivers/actors).

 

Will there be any updates to the app? And will there be an android version?

 

Good wishes

-Jacob

 

 

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, Jacob Gustavsson said:

I hope the iOS app gets updated too.

Pity they don't have an Android app either. 

I did a shoot a few weeks back with the F8, and the app is cool indeed, just felt like they could do so so much more with it! (such as why not playback over bluetooth?!)

[VAS]

Rumors of estimated availability?

[IronFilm]

16 hours ago, VAS said:

Rumors of estimated availability?

Yup, it is July:

 

 

On 4/10/2018 at 3:56 PM, IronFilm said:

The recorder is still a few months away ("July"), and details are not yet concrete (price is looking to be twelve hundred dollars). 

 

[Movies by Matt]

Mr. IronFilm-

 

If Zoom doesn't hire you in some capacity they're fools. You're the #1 brand ambassador for them and a respected member of several communities. Seriously though, after all you've written in support for Zoom, the absolute least they should do is give you a Zoom F8n, if only cause you'd educate everyone about that product. Zoom, are you paying attention?!? Don't lose Mr. IronFilm to the competition. I bet he's solely responsible for at least 50 sales of your products due to the consistent feedback he gives about the F8. 

[IronFilm]

Ha! Thank you very much for the kind words :-)

I'd say they already have a brand ambassador though in the capable hands of Andrew Jones (although now he is joining Deity full time I wonder if that relationship will change? Maybe, maybe not). 

I will point out though I'm not an F8 owner (although I've rented it for paid shoots), but rather a Zoom F4 owner.

 

And I'll happily admit it isn't perfect (the RF issues I once experienced being my biggest/only disappointment, which I had a good little rant about in a couple of Zoom F series FB communities), but then again no product is perfect! 

However I am out there all the time using my Zoom F4 on all sorts of work, including multiple feature films lasting weeks of shooting.  And I've been really enjoying it. 

Nothing from the new Sound Devices MixPre series would tempt me away (except the MixPre10T, but that is triple the price! And makes no sense for anyone I reckon personally over the F4 unless they really need those extra inputs. Which is kinda sometimes becoming the case for me, do I really want to carry that many wireless receivers in my bag??? Maybe the limit the F4 caps me at is a good thing! haha). 

I have been wondering if I should be starting to save up towards buying a 664/688/SX-R4+/Nomad/etc in the near-ish future, but perhaps the Zoom F8n might tempt me to stay with Zoom for another couple of years longer. 

 

 

[chrismedr]

I can see the point of using a F4 for short no-budget shoots where nobody gets paid, but on a paid feature which takes weeks - why would anybody want to?

 

I mean, buy a 633 or used 788T for 3500EUR, work with it for 3 years, sell it again for 2900EUR if you need something new then - you basically rented a top machine (which is much more flexible and enjoyable) for 200EUR per year. and with a bit of negotiating it should be easy to cover that with extra rental fees (like "I charge you 2EUR per day more to use a Sound Devices instead of a Zoom")

 

chris

[IronFilm]

Even if we totally ignore the price difference for a moment, I'm fairly skeptical if I had the offer in July to buy a new Zoom F8n or a secondhand 788T at the same price that I'd choose the plain 788T over the F8n (perhaps if the 788T came in a package with all of CL-WiFi + CL-1 + CL-8, then the decision might start to tip towards 788T).

[ZoomOfficial]

On 4/12/2018 at 1:16 PM, efksound said:

I'd bet anything that, the supposed F8n inside the display cabinet , (that probably no one was allowed to touch during NAB) is just a normal F8 with some different firmware loaded, and displaying some fancy new screen :-)

 

 

You'd lose that bet

 

[The Immoral Mr Teas]

4 hours ago, ZoomOfficial said:

You'd lose that bet

 

 

Ha nice one Samuel !

 

What I wouldn't mind seeing would be some syncable addition - either AES/EBU digi in-out or word clock or some other cascade/sync function.

 

Aside from that it is just the implementation of a choice of line out as well as the current consumer line out and (I think) mic out.

 

Always been an impressive machine for the money.

 

Jez

 

 

[Jim Feeley]

20 hours ago, ZoomOfficial said:

You'd lose that bet

 

😀

[IronFilm]

https://wavreport.com/2018/05/02/what-we-know-about-the-new-zoom-f8n/

Quote

When the limiter of the F8/F8n is activated for a channel it automatically cuts 10 dB of gain from the analog preamp. That 10 dB is automatically added back after the AD converter. This is a way we build an extra 10 dB of headroom to avoid clipping over the already high dynamic range (A/D Converter has 120 dB dynamic range, with limiter effective dynamic range is 130 dB)

Additionally the new F8/F8n limiters features “Look Ahead” detection. This allows the limiters to anticipate peaks above the threshold and attenuate it before clipping occurs. It does this by creating a small (1 ms) delay that allows the limiter to see a high peak and activate before the audio is recorded.

 

 

[chrismedr]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

When the limiter of the F8/F8n is activated for a channel it automatically cuts 10 dB of gain from the analog preamp. That 10 dB is automatically added back after the AD converter. This is a way we build an extra 10 dB of headroom to avoid clipping over the already high dynamic range (A/D Converter has 120 dB dynamic range, with limiter effective dynamic range is 130 dB)

 

I'm confused - how can one have 130dB DR if the ADC only has 120dB to start with?

Unless they use dual preamps, I just can't see this happening.

 

From the description it sounds like there is no analog limiter, but they simply record at 10dB reduced analog gain, then add a digital limiter and boost the gain by 10db digitally? If that's the case, what's the benefit of this then just recording with 10dB more safety headroom without a limiter (other then that post doesn't wonder why you're running such low levels)?

 

chris

 

 

[Vincent R.]

On 5/3/2018 at 3:25 AM, chrismedr said:

 

I'm confused - how can one have 130dB DR if the ADC only has 120dB to start with?

Unless they use dual preamps, I just can't see this happening.

 

From the description it sounds like there is no analog limiter, but they simply record at 10dB reduced analog gain, then add a digital limiter and boost the gain by 10db digitally? If that's the case, what's the benefit of this then just recording with 10dB more safety headroom without a limiter (other then that post doesn't wonder why you're running such low levels)?

 

chris

 

 

Because it's AND, AND; and it does the lower 10db trick, and afterwards it goes 'trough' a digital limiter. And the new F8n has a 3rd AND, the look ahead functionality. Although the 'raise from 120 to 130 dB' by doing this sounds like a marketing thing and maybe a bit misleading, it is actually technically true. But for the sake of if there is an actual limiter or not, it doesn't matter, it's just an extra safety measure to avoid initial clipping. The AD converters in the Zoom, and most other products from other manufacturers do allow for this added gain in the digital domain, the resolution is high enough to go unnoticed. 

[chrismedr]

3 hours ago, Vincent R. said:

Because it's AND, AND; and it does the lower 10db trick, and afterwards it goes 'trough' a digital limiter. And the new F8n has a 3rd AND, the look ahead functionality. Although the 'raise from 120 to 130 dB' by doing this sounds like a marketing thing and maybe a bit misleading, it is actually technically true. But for the sake of if there is an actual limiter or not, it doesn't matter, it's just an extra safety measure to avoid initial clipping. The AD converters in the Zoom, and most other products from other manufacturers do allow for this added gain in the digital domain, the resolution is high enough to go unnoticed. 

 

sorry, I think I still don't get it...

I'm sure the "resolution" is high enough with nearly all digital recorder these days, but if the ADC gives you 120dB to start with, no look ahead limiter or boosting levels or other digital wizardry will magically turn that into real 130dB later on (unless I'm missing some fundamental logic here).

 

 

 

[Vincent R.]

15 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

 

sorry, I think I still don't get it...

I'm sure the "resolution" is high enough with nearly all digital recorder these days, but if the ADC gives you 120dB to start with, no look ahead limiter or boosting levels or other digital wizardry will magically turn that into real 130dB later on (unless I'm missing some fundamental logic here).

 

 

 

Because (I think) the gain reduction is an atanuation. Let's say I scream with 130db in a mic, so with 10db atanuation that will be 120db thus in the limitations of the adc, and gaining it back in digital domain to 130db, you effectively have 130db range. Key word is effectively. 

And keep in mind this is all done to feed the digital limiter. Part of Zoom's solution to make a digital limiter more effective. 

[chrismedr]

9 hours ago, Vincent R. said:

Because (I think) the gain reduction is an atanuation. Let's say I scream with 130db in a mic, so with 10db atanuation that will be 120db thus in the limitations of the adc, and gaining it back in digital domain to 130db, you effectively have 130db range. Key word is effectively. 

And keep in mind this is all done to feed the digital limiter. Part of Zoom's solution to make a digital limiter more effective. 

 

sure, if you apply 10dB attenuation to your 130dB scream then it will record fine at 120dB, but at the same time everything that happened in the 1-10dB range is pushed below 0dB and therefore lost forever - applying digital gain will not bring back up any signal that was never sampled to start with. in other words a 10dB attenuation would allow for higher max levels, but not for higher dynamic range because you essentially just shift which 120dB you're recording.

 

anyway, 120dB should be enough if properly implemented, I was just wondering how they think they managed to get more dynamic range on their total system then their weakest link.

chris