filmfreak Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Hi to everyone I was recently asked to work on a documentary shooting, which will be shot in underground caves. I was first asked if I am claustrophobic and then informed that I will be wearing a water proof uniform that will cover me up to my neck. Camera will be housed in a special underwater casing and I will also have to build up an "underwater" housing for my equipment too. I first thought to give it a go with Rode's NTG3 as it is the most humid protected mic I know . I was informed that production wants to shoot even if we are covered up to our neck with water and the guy who speaks is also covered up to his neck with water and there might be no possibility to boom overhead due to height restrictions. I though to use watertight wireless and then just a very rugged device with CF only to avoid humidity issues and mechanical arm movement on a hard disc. I had in mind a SD 702 ( we will use sticks ) and then a pair of either lectros or audios in a watertight box. I was also thinking to plug direct to the recorder to avoid issues with extreme moisture between mixer and recorder cables. I still haven't figured out how I will be able to house the recorder in a watertight box and also be able to mix. Not sure how it will all work and never red a thread about a similar type of shooting . Does anyone have any experience from a similar type of shooting ? Dos and dont's ? Will rf travel normally in very humid under the earth water caves ? Thanx Aris P.S. I will have a pole and a boom mic in a Peli case with me , in case location allows me to use it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 That seems pretty cool. I've never been in such extreme conditions, but have done some surfing stuff. But here's what I'd do... If you are willing to buy a new piece of gear, I think this would be a perfect application to use a waterproof lav in the hair or over the ear with the Zaxcom recorder/transmitter under the talent's waterproof suit. You can have a 702T with a receiver from the lav in ch1 and your boom, when available, in ch2. If you're underwater, the Tx/Rx combo might be useless. They make a waterproof slate holder. I would also consider mounting a mic on the camera and seeing if it can poke out of their waterproof housing. Put some sort of softie over the end to protect against moisture, and keep back-up softies dry to swap out. Sounds like fun. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 For mics, a Countryman EMW is a good choice: http://www.countryman.com/store/product.asp?id=1&catid=10 Not only are they immersible, but they are relatively inexpensive and a good sounding choice to have in your kit anyway. John B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 See if the wet suit has a collar that goes up to the chin, then you can use a hair mount for the lav and the tx would go on the inside of the collar on the back of the neck. The rx could go on the camera but that would cut you out of a job unfortunately. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Sounds like good advice here. While I have no experience with this outfit, I have seen folks here recommend http://www.oceantechnologysystems.com/ for aquatic-oriented audio systems. You may find that you require cable with water-tight connectors or something like that. I'm sure they could help, may be pricey tho.. ..I would avoid the slate if possible, just another bulky item to get in your way. Surely you could synch in some other way.. Maybe use a radio to send RecRun TC from camera to remote roll your sound devices? The million dollar question: How do you plan to operate a rig whilst immersed up to your neck?? RF-wise who knows... I would guess being inside a cave with irregular walls is similar to being in open air, since there are very few parallel surfaces for waves to bounce off of... line of sight may be pretty important. Most caves I've been in sound pretty dead, leading me to believe that most waves just disperse and don't come back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam D Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Cavers generally wear a hamlet. You could put a TX in the helmet with a B6 on the rim. There is normally a reasonable amount if room up there. In a past life (before sound and kids) I worked as a cave guide. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 In a past life (before sound and kids) I worked as a cave guide. Adam So, did you wear a hamlet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 So, did you wear a hamlet? Alas, poor Adam, I knew him well. Whether 'tis nobler to suffer the curves and narrows of stalactites and stalagmites... I'll stop now. JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Paine Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Mount a MM400C transmiter on the back of a caving helmet, and see if production would go for one of those mini boom arm mics (like the countryman E6) that hang off the side of the face. On your end, I'd go double system. Get a 411 receiver and small recorder (722 ?) and seal them in a watertight transparent bag. Soft enough for you to press the buttons through the plastic. That way you can operate the equipment while it is completely sealed inside the enclosure. Make sure you've got lots of juice before you seal up the whole thing. Attach a small transmiter on the headphone out, and monitor with a wireless receiver you can keep on you. Worst case scenario in this setup, you kill a wireless receiver you're using as your monitor. Sounds like a fun gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Deeth Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 I just completed a cave shoot. Helmet rigging is definitely the way to go. I used a B6 and MM400 in multiple helmets with a cutout in the helmet's styrofoam on top of the head (inside obviously). These foam pieces are typically inserts which stick into the helmet via velcro... so I removed it, made a cutout, and also used an elastic transmitter pouch (thigh sized) and wrapped it around the foam with the tx sitting inside the cutout, but also supported by the elastic. Then the whole mess just velcros back inside the helmet. I rigged the B6 at the center of the rim of the helmet with waterproof tape and ran the excess wire into the helmet and looped it up and taped it down with waterproof tape leaving enough tail for the connector to have some slack. This rig worked very well inside the cave, the only major hassel was that battery changes are a bit of a task, but what are ya gonna do ? Range inside a cave is constantly changing... being around a corner in a cave is at times no different than being a mile away... even if you are only 20 ft away. Close and Line of sight are best bet... but in a large cavern range can be great. Regarding the water.... water is likely to be an underground river and will very greatly in depth. I would bet that the amount of filming whilst in neck deep water will be minimal, but cetainly plan for it. Here is what worked for me. I had 2 dry bags. ANY time that I had ANY concern about water getting on my gear it got bagged. My Zep came off and went into one bag with the pole... and my Pegz2 slid neatly into another. When it was necessary to shoot while trudging, or even swimming, I left the whole bag powered inside the dry bag on my back... worked great. No boom or phones at that point though. When I was certain that I wasn't going in too deep, but was still waist deep.. I ran my phones cable out the top so I could monitor. All of my gear worked great and never got wet. Safety - It's Dark even with head lamps ... It's physically demanding ... Sharp Rocks ... Loose Rocks ... Current ... Awkward steps ... Climbing with gear ... Take your time and DO NOT let a production rush you in these conditions. Falling in some of these caves can be very very bad, a small slip can tear you up real good and a major fall could be deadly. NO JOKE ! Anyone attempting this kind of thing had better be hiring a guide team who is familiar with the specific cave / caves. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danijel Milosevic Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Exciting thread! I just wanted to chime in with this idea that you could consider taking a hand-held recorder like a Zoom or the small Edirol for the neck-deep shoots. You can tape it to the Rx so the combo can be held in one hand over the water, because you will need the other hand for balancing/swimming etc. You can also monitor with an earpiece on a short cable.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimg Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 So, did you wear a hamlet? What with the low clearance and all, wearing a hamlet can make for a really stiff neck at the end of the workday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 I think the suggestion to use the Zaxcom wireless (you probably don't have to buy it, just rent) is the best idea. That way you have only the transmitter to place/hide/protect and you have a recorder as well on your subject. If any part of the RF chain fails you will still have a great recording from the microphone --- providing, of course, you find a good location for that all important microphone (and there have been a lot of good suggestions here on how to place that mic). - Jeff Wexler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Mantlo Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 What with the low clearance and all, wearing a hamlet can make for a really stiff neck at the end of the workday. LOL. Where do you go to find one these days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Deeth Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Using the Zaxcom recording tx would have been a nice addition and backup. In my situation I would still have needed a mixer and wireless hop to camera as we had multiple characters and there were quite a few situations where I needed, or at least wanted my schoeps on the pole. True dual system sound wasn't going to happen for various reasons. Holding a device in one hand above your head... I would just put it in a small drybag high on my back. You will likely need both hands to navigate at times. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Mantlo Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Using the Zaxcom recording tx would have been a nice addition and backup. In my situation I would still have needed a mixer and wireless hop to camera as we had multiple characters and there were quite a few situations where I needed, or at least wanted my schoeps on the pole. True dual system sound wasn't going to happen for various reasons. Holding a device in one hand above your head... I would just put it in a small drybag high on my back. You will likely need both hands to navigate at times. Jeff Would the Schoeps survive the humid conditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Deeth Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Schoeps did great ! Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 COuntryman B6,B3 or EMW. Lectrosonics MM400 ( A, B or C ), Dry bag with the minimum Like a 302 with a back up recorder, try to be wireless hop to the cam ( Lectros SR since it as a membrane front that is water resistant and two MM400 or hop ), Sennheiser MKH series ( 60 or 50, but the 50 as a lot of handling noise ) with no boom and wireless ( Handle with cables wrapped in a ziplock bag. ), just the pistol grip and wireless, UCR411a, remote mount the antenna on your head. RF does not work underwater so all tx and rx antenna have to be in the open. Helmet or hat mount Lav+TX ( easy battery change and access ). Remote mount your RX antenna on your head. My two cents ( which seems to be the consensus ). Pascal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Mantlo Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Schoeps did great ! Jeff I'm shocked. Schoeps are infamous for crapping out in humid conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmfreak Posted April 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Thanks to everyone There's some great insight and advice on the posts. I got a clear picture of what I must do and keep in mind . I was kind of freaking out regarding rx/tx signal under the earth but line of sight is the way I will go. 2 bags for keeping everything dry is a very good piece of advice. Zaxcom recorder seems like the best possible solution. Great feedback. Aris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 I just got the whole Hamlet thing! Typos are so much fun, and I can't believe it took me this long. It was hilarious!! And I paid a lot of money to USC for my English degree. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimg Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 LOL. Where do you go to find one these days? I'm betting the English countryside variety would be best for cave use. I technically live in a hamlet but the recent rash of cottage and bungalow tear-downs and the McMansion replacements make my hamlet far too bulky for cave use. Sorry, I couldn't resist. It's an interesting thread, actually. Many challenges and I wish I had something more positive to contribute. I want to hear how it goes down there. Best regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy P Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Yes this does sound like a great job. One small point, that I'm sure you will work out for yourself pretty quickly anyway, but make sure to mount the helmet mic itself on something soft to act as a sound dampening mount (moleskin,bluetack/whatever), otherwise if you mount directly on the helmet plastic it will effectively turn into a boundry mic, and sound pretty horrible. What are the dry bags you guys are referring to that fit a whole kit bag inside them? Is there something like an Aquapac, but with transparent plastic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Check out camping and boating suppliers for transparent drybags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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