Lavs in a tie

[alanscully]

Hi all this is my first post. Here is this old chestnut where to put a lav on a man wearing a tie, usually in the past i have used a tram in a rycote sticky on both sides and then a rycote fluffy on the outer side and then stick it to the inside part of the gentleman's shirt about 2-3 inches from the tie knot. I have heard about the tie-knot method can anyone else elaborate me on this worried that this method may cause a throaty sound rather than the more natural sound i get from placing the mic nearer the solar plexus. Pics would help.

Many thanks

Alan

[jason porter]

you are right about that...

Sometimes it works perfectly, sounds as natural as any lav.

Sometimes it is throaty (maybe that is as good as it gets!) and sometimes their stubble rubs the collar of the shirt which is like nails on a chalkboard to me!

[Jeff Wexler]

I have heard about the tie-knot method can anyone else elaborate me on this worried that this method may cause a throaty sound rather than the more natural sound i get from placing the mic nearer the solar plexus. Pics would help.

Many thanks

Alan

I am certainly no expert on this, I am sure someone who actually does this a lot will chime in, but I think it is rather common practice to mount a lav IN the knot of the tie, usually facing down, and with a little EQ this sounds quite good. Probably the most common mic to do this with is the Sanken COS-11; certain mics will sound good used this way, others I imagine could sound dreadful. The people who work on TV shows with many characters whose wardrobe is a coat and tie all the time, I am fairly sure that the "in the knot" method is used a lot.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Sergio Sanmiguel]

I do the cos-11 pointing down on a tie knot quite often. Sometimes you can even get away with sneaking out the tip of the lav without being noticed on camera & also helps to avoid rustling noise.

[tourtelot]

Yep.  We use B6s in the tie fairly regularly on my show. I just put a tiny bit of top-stick on the cable just north of the head and poke it's little head out the bottom of the knot.  The double-stick assure that the mic will stay in place even with some fussing from wardrobe.  It just disappears into the shadow under the knot.  Invisible!  Sometimes it works really well, sometimes it's awful, sometimes it is the only choice, awful or not (knot?).  Just one more trick that can sometimes pull your ass out of the fire and turn a horrid-sounding scene into a great sounding scene.

What we try to do most is not give up.  My rule is that if we don't like the sound of a mic placement (and this could be lavs, overheads, mic choice, car mounts or what-have-you) we keep making it better, no matter how deep into the scene we are.  It is always my hope to make the right call in the beginning and have a totally consistent sound all the way through the scene, but I always assume that post would be better served by getting some of it right than none of it, so we never linger on a bad sounding mic for more than a take.

What really aches is when our second choice sounds worse than the first<g>.  Shit, shit, shit!

D.

[tourtelot]

Oh yeah.  Heavy nose breathers will kill you!

D.

[Q]

You just have to experiment with it.  With a little EQ the mic in the knot sounds fine.  Beard stubble can be a real problem, especially if the actor looks down and turns his head a lot while delivering lines.  Try wrapping the mic with a layer of mole skin if handling noise is a problem -- sometimes it helps, sometimes not.  It's easy to experiment, just put on a tie, wire yourself up and see what happens.

Friday night I attended the premiere of feature I mixed.  One character was in a tie for the entire show, and I used the mic in the tie exclusively for him.  Though I think most of his dialog came from the boom, some wide shots had to use the lav's sound, and it sounded fine cut with the boom.

[David Waelder]

What we try to do most is not give up.

I second everything Douglas says.

My experience with mikes in ties is that they almost never sound good unless you can poke the end of the mike out into the air. The idea is to use the tie-mike in the longer shots (where one of two millimeters of tiny mike in the shadow of the knot is indistinguishable) and push the mike back into the knot for the close-ups when a boom mike ought to be able to play. Sometimes wardrobe is cooperative, sometimes knot.

David Waelder

[Guest BobD]

We use a "hush Lav"  foam combined with a Sanken Cos-11...  It DOES fit in the knot without adding bulk due to it's skrunch- ability. This type of foam will not allow the mic to slip around, it is black, and no sticky material is used which can from time to time create it's own audio problems... This setup also gives just a bit of isolation from the silk, which is important...  the very little space created really helps out.

  We also just use the naked mic as well in the tie.... Sometimes with the snot tape... like most of our audio puzzles, you don't really know until you see the puzzle...

   For most shots other than a really tight shot, you can poke it out a bit without noticing as has been pointed out..

  They can sometimes sound a bit strange due to it's proximity to ones voice box, but I am always surprised how they actually sound through a speaker....  It's never really a problem and sounds GREAT when compared to almost ANY other suit and tie situation.... Other mounting styles in this regard can be a real pain in the ass....  This works.

[old school]

Hey Alan, all the advise given so far is good solid technique from experienced sound mixers. Douglas hit on the larger picture of it all by trying all things until you get it as well as it can be recorded. I third his POV. It is easy to give up, hard to keep trying. Frankly a Sanken in the tie is easy compared to the other radio mic scenarios we all run into concerning wardrobe or lack of wardrobe.

CrewC

[soundtrane]

I've put a Sanken just below the place where the tie flares out just below the knot. The cable comes out of the shirt. This way, the mic head is clear, hidden by the tie and in position where it may have been if it was only a shirt. Sometimes, this wont work if the cable can be seen between the tie and the shirt if the character is completely sideways about 90 degrees to camera. As for the tie itself moving - so long as i can "fix" the tie in place with a piece of topstick, a little way down, it works out fine.

I've tried the knot position as well at times.

-vin

[soundtrane]

<<certain mics will sound good used this way, others I imagine could sound dreadful.>>

Truly, if one used a side-open mic like a TRAM, it would be very difficult to have the mic uncovered by the tie itself. The Sanken proves to be the right choice for most situations, which is why most mixers are using them nowadays. But then there are some who swear by the TRAM format, like Pawel Wdowczak who never used a Sanken on "The Darjeeling Limited".

-vin

[Kevin Sorensen]

So how do you all deal with wind noise?

I will use a Hush Lav with rycote felt or just felt ( black ) and use Topstick to hold it to the end of

the Hush Lav foam. Also i cut round hole in the Topstick so it wont affect the Cos-11, it kind of looks

like a washer.

KKS

[BoomOperator]

I too use the Sanken COS-11 in the tie knot often. I've found that the Countryman B6 is more susceptible to wind noise from nose-breathers so I use is less often. I agree with everyone here about the downsides of this rig: scratchy beards on shirt collars, noisy silk ties. Like Doug,  I put some moleskin just north of the head, and then sometimes a little topstick just north of that. The one time I couldn't get usable sound from this setup was due to a very textured silk tie and a 5 button rayon jacket that buttoned up very high and close to the tie knot. Even on the boom the sound was barely usable!

Rich

[Philip Perkins]

I think the best message here is that ties are very problematic for lav mic use in general, and you have to go in with the attitude that no method works all (or even most ) of the time.  It helps to have your friendly on w/ the wardrobe folks and the actor(s) in question, be apologetic and all, because you may have to drop back and find a new solution as the action of the scene becomes clear.  Some days I find that the only thing I can do is get the mic as far from the tie as I can (esp in scenes where the boom cannot work and all I have is the lav)--out to the "wings" of the collar of a sport coat for instance.  (I hate ties.) 

Philip Perkins

[Guest BobD]

My boom op almost NEVER has any problems with the tie knot mount.... It almost always works great....  The beauty of the knot mount is the knot moves very little...   Physical clothing noise is just that, physical, and sometimes can't be helped..  But the desirable sound to noise ratio with the knot mount normally works to your advantage.

I do not hate ties any more... in fact, I am sometimes happy to see them 

[Philip Perkins]

My boom op almost NEVER has any problems with the tie knot mount.... It almost always works great....  The beauty of the knot mount is the knot moves very little...   Physical clothing noise is just that, physical, and sometimes can't be helped..  But the desirable sound to noise ratio with the knot mount normally works to your advantage.

I do not hate ties any more... in fact, I am sometimes happy to see them 

Not so here--too many guys w/ fashionable stubble I guess, I also don't like the "necky" sound much. W/ a starchy shirt and a silk tie we have a potential "bad day at the office".  My boom op and I have a well worked out routine for this, but like I say, no technique works for us all the time. In sound my cutting work, much of any  "physical clothing noise" on a track gets that track pitched, usually.

Philip Perkins

[Rob Lewis]

I have found that the MKE-2 works better for me than the Sanken.  It is mostly a sound issue, as the Sanken, to my ears, is muddy up that high.  The MKE-2 helps to avoid that muddy sound with a lav being up that close to the vocal chords.

-Rob

[Bob Marts]

While there are exceptions, I've found that the Sanken in the tie knot works pretty well most of the time.

I made a tool which works like an old fashioned button hook to help make threading the mic down through the top of the knot easier on the actor and the sound crew.

Bob

[André Boisvert]

What a great, simple idea. Thanks for sharing.

[Bob Marts]

I used a clothes hanger and needle-nosed pliers to make it.

Push the hook up through the knot, hook the mic and pull back down.

Bob

[Derek H]

I like it!  Just don't miss and go up the actor's nose! 

I heard somewhere once the idea of using fabric softener sheets (the kind you throw in the dryer) to spot-soften starchy shirts..  anybody try this/ have any luck?

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

That's something you should check with the wardrobe department first to see if it's okay with them. If they approve, I'd let the costumer do it.

When there is noisy wardrobe I have a polite conversation - (really, it's my crew who do the asking) with the Wardrobe department to see what they can do to help, different fabric choices and even dry cleaning processes.

RL

[RPSharman]

I have found that the MKE-2 works better for me than the Sanken.  It is mostly a sound issue, as the Sanken, to my ears, is muddy up that high.  The MKE-2 helps to avoid that muddy sound with a lav being up that close to the vocal chords.

-Rob

I agree with this.  But more often than not, my F-ing boom guy (wink, Rich) will use the COS-11 and claim he "forgot" I prefer the MKE2 in this application.

Regarding the tie thing as a rule...I much prefer the mic in the shirt, but clothing noise, especially the tie rubbing or smacking the shirt, is an issue.  So usually I ask my boom op to not put it in the tie, but by take 2 it's in the tie.

One MAJOR issue with this technique, I found when first employing it as a boom/utility, is cable tug pulling the mic up into the knot.  So as a beginner, please be careful of this.  If the mic ends up IN the tie, it's a disaster!  You also need to constantly babysit the mic, since the costume department will almost always shove it up.  Your boom up is on set after they leave, then he/sho can pull it back down. 

My micing method is to stick the mic about an inch out of the knot, then run the cable under the collar to the middle of the back of the collar, where I put a nice piece of tape to firmly hold the cable.  Once the tie knot and costume is finalized, then I poke up the mic leaving it as exposed as possible, and dress the cable if needed.  If the mic slides in the knot, then a little moleskin wrap or Topstick will usually do the trick.

Regarding wind.  I did a scene on "West Wing" on the runway at LAX, extremely windy.  I used the long, gray windscreen (see photo) designed for the MKE2 but effective on the COS-11.  We used the COS-11, managing to insert one windscreen inside the other, then I trimmed the hole on the foam windscreen closer to the tip, otherwise the mic head was too far up the tie.  This was a handheld shot with lots going on, people getting out of a plane, secret service, limos, etc., so a little bit of mic exposure was ok with costumes.  It worked like a charm, with the occasional "puff" when hit head-on with a 30mph gust.

Robert

[mikewest]

Hi,

Mr Tourtelot has told the story!

The B6 is magic poked down through the tie knot.

Did a job last week - no eq - brilliant

Try it and use your ears

Cheers

mike

www.mikewestgatesound.co.nz