Jump to content

Beeps at end of take


Jeff Wexler

Recommended Posts

I know this is one of the more trivial discussions and we have talked about this before, but how many still put 2 beeps at the end of the take? For most of us who have had a lengthy career working in analog linear tape and transfers to mag film, this was an important part of the process. As we all know, in the non-linear file based world, the audible end beeps have lost most of their significance --- when the take is over and we stop the recorder the file has come to its end without any need to identify this point. I still put 2 beeps at the end, mostly out of habit but it does still serve the purpose to let anyone else listening, script, director, boom operator, know that I have stopped the recording.

-  Jeff Wexler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://www.productionrecording.com/Tools/AlaCarte.html

I continue to do so for the reasons you cite. I have a Cooper mixer and I flick the remote roll switch on and off to automatically generate the tones. I'm not sure I would continue the practice in the absence of such an easy method. And, I don't sweat it if I forget once in awhile.

David Waelder

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Several years ago (I was not the mixer), a request came from post a few days in to have the stop beeps at the end of the takes.  Why?  Because they wanted to make sure they were there in case the take was used in the gag reel.  "People expect to hear it".  It was suggested they add it later.  "Oh, right."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never used mag/linear tape, but I was trained at Film School to do two beeps at the end of the take to signify cutting. I still do use two beeps and have one of the function buttons set up on my 01V96 to deliver tone, but sometimes equipment wont let you, say for example my Sound Devices 442, the tone switch will allow the tone to be either on or off, but the mechanical action of the switch won't allow two quick bursts of tone. But one thing I have stopped doing is recording a minute or thirty seconds of tone at the start of each day in the hope that the post people will calibrate the tone correctly on their equipment as no one is syncing or recording DAT anymore. Strangely though, I still run tone to camera when the camera assistant is recording bars.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still do use two beeps and have one of the function buttons set up on my 01V96 to deliver tone, but sometimes equipment wont let you, say for example my Sound Devices 442, the tone switch will allow the tone to be either on or off, but the mechanical action of the switch won't allow two quick bursts of tone.

One of the reasons for my asking the question relates to the equipment in use, with some of the equipment/mixers not really letting you do 2 beeps easily. I have done them with the SD 442 mixer but you are right, the toggle switch makes it difficult to do this elegantly and easily. If I were to use a recorder directly, with an interface for example, I know that not all recorders have a tone generator that is easily accessible. The Deva can generate tone but you must leave the Home screen, push an onscreen button for tone, then press it again to end the tone --- not something I want to do at the end of every take.

-  Jeff Wexler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like Crew C I've always done it. (One beep at the end of a take and multiple beeps to signify the end of recording on this particular roll..)

The origin of it I believe was that an assistant editor looking for a particular take just went fast forward and counted the beep at the end of the takes.

Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s. (Production Sound Mixer.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never used mag/linear tape, but I was trained at Film School to do two beeps at the end of the take to signify cutting. I still do use two beeps and have one of the function buttons set up on my 01V96 to deliver tone, but sometimes equipment wont let you, say for example my Sound Devices 442, the tone switch will allow the tone to be either on or off, but the mechanical action of the switch won't allow two quick bursts of tone. But one thing I have stopped doing is recording a minute or thirty seconds of tone at the start of each day in the hope that the post people will calibrate the tone correctly on their equipment as no one is syncing or recording DAT anymore. Strangely though, I still run tone to camera when the camera assistant is recording bars.

Actually with the 442 it's easy. Go into the menu and assign a 400hz 1 second tone to precede the slate mic turning on. With a little practice you can get 2 short 400hz beeps or 1 long beep before the slate mic goes active. It works great for me.

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Deva can generate tone but you must leave the Home screen, push an onscreen button for tone, then press it again to end the tone --- not something I want to do at the end of every take.

Jeff, you should get a Cantar! (just kidding...)  :)

The beeps can happen to alert people in the IFB mode (dir,scripty,etc - i am sure boom op would not need it!). Otherwise, it's not of any use? In this BWF, file based system - no telecine op/edit asst./sound asst., or the like would need to get an audio cue while "fast-forwarding".

Funny thing is that i would have rather liked that - it will eliminate many of the new-fangled "i am a sound guy" types from the foray  - those who have NO clue about sound - especially analog. Is there any other yet?

-vin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is an old habit.  I still feel good when playing back a track from a Doc or reality job and i hear those two tones to indicate that i cut intentionally, not inadvertently or by accident. Also i have had weirdness occur when prepping tracks for transcription and some files got cut off.  The two beeps are a confirmation that a file did not get cut off.  PD-606 will add tail tones as well.

john..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is an old habit.  I still feel good when playing back a track from a Doc or reality job and i hear those two tones to indicate that i cut intentionally, not inadvertently or by accident. Also i have had weirdness occur when prepping tracks for transcription and some files got cut off.  The two beeps are a confirmation that a file did not get cut off.   PD-606 will add tail tones as well.

john..

John - This brings up another issue for me.  I have found it increasingly common that "cut" is not called out on set by anyone.  If cut is called out and heard on the mic, then the audio file ends, it's obviously intentional.  These days directors often just walk onto set at the end of a take.  If we're lucky, the camera operators ask the AD, "Should I cut?"  The AD looks at the director, "Is that a cut?"  Director says, "Oh, yes.  Cut."  If I have no video on my cart, increasingly common on low-budget RED shoots with no village, I have no way of knowing if there's a cut or not.  I have taken to asking my boom operators to ask the camera operators if they have cut the camera.  On video shoots, taking their eye off the eyepiece or taking the camera off their shoulders in NOT an indication that they have cut.  I want to know if the button has been pushed.  Although I do not use the two beeps, I do make sure it is very clear that the cut is intentional, sometimes saying "that's a cut" into the slate mic before hitting the button.

On the same note...how do we get these damn ACs to wait for the boom operator to say "speed" before hitting sticks?  It's not an issue of ACTUALLY getting the sticks, we have pre-roll, but "speed" indicates we are ready.  There are any number of reasons that the mixer or boom op might need a second or two after the AD calls "roll sound".  And what happened to that???  The last set I was on, the director would tell the operator to roll, the operator would turn the camera on and the AC would hit the sticks.  It was only because I always monitor the set that I knew to hit the button.  Sometimes the 1st AD and the actors weren't even ready.  Tragic.

Whatever happened to protocol?

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not beeping much anymore--the equipment I have now doesn't make it easy, and the files are all discrete and individually named anyhow.  The Nagra was beep-friendly (osc. button right next main function selector), and for DAT I often used 2 clicks of the slate mic in the panel.  Nowadays I figure it's pretty obvious where I cut since the file ends.  For anything I think might be confusing I'll "talk to the recorder" about it.  I still think line-up tones are good and useful--as a separate file marked TONE/SLATE at the start of the day.  The posties can hear me say what the sample rate, depth and frame rates are, hear a countoff of the running TC, and it gives me a chance to say hi and wish them a good day.  On commercials with billions of similar takes a head slate when I first roll before I say "speed" is, I think, a good idea.

Philip Perkins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think its lame when your on a shoot and everytime the AD calls out ROLL SOUND, The AC pulls out the tape measure to get focus. What ever happened to protocol?,, Some people have no idea what focus and film magic means. I will do tone on bars and a head slate to identify the day but I dont usually do tone beeps at the end when it is a file based recording. I think it is a good method to keep though,when you are also recording to cam so they know you have cut even if the cam keeps rolling. The Sound Devices tone with the slate mic is a good idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know this is one of the more trivial discussions and we have talked about this before, but how many still put 2 beeps at the end of the take?

Still beeping.  As others have noted, when it becomes a mystery on whether or not camera has cut in this day and age (HD shoots with bad protocol or bad information from the camera dept), it probably is helpful to put the beeps there to at least indicate that cutting was a conscious decision as opposed to a machine failure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the traditional guys. Audio slate at head, two beeps at the end of the take. To me, whether or not it's file-based doesn't change the practice.

We have had situations in post -- especially with wild tracks -- where the take goes for :30 seconds, then abruptly ends. No cut, no two beeps, nothin'. And we have to struggle and check the playback machine to make sure it's really, truly into silence and not just momentarily quiet. Having the two beeps makes it obvious.

There are sound mixers who go a step further and add "and that's a cut," which is optional, but appreciated. All of these things may sound trivial, but they each add up in the end.

--Marc W.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a sound effects recordist I always slate the head and say cut at the tail.  And, as a former transfer guy back in the days of mag, there was a critical reason why it was important to have (different) beeps at the head and tail of a take.  If, say, the dialogue editor need a reprint of a particular take, I would find the sound roll it lived on - then, using the sound report, I could fast forward the 1/4 tape right to the proper take by listening to and counting the beeps.  If the take were the 8th on the tape, I'd count 8 head or tail beeps.  If I'm not mistaken, the beeps were rather lower than 1K so that, when sped up, they were easily identifiable. 

A.

I agree with the traditional guys. Audio slate at head, two beeps at the end of the take. To me, whether or not it's file-based doesn't change the practice.

We have had situations in post -- especially with wild tracks -- where the take goes for :30 seconds, then abruptly ends. No cut, no two beeps, nothin'. And we have to struggle and check the playback machine to make sure it's really, truly into silence and not just momentarily quiet. Having the two beeps makes it obvious.

There are sound mixers who go a step further and add "and that's a cut," which is optional, but appreciated. All of these things may sound trivial, but they each add up in the end.

--Marc W.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

many folks used a LF sub-tone that was on when the slate mic was on, at say 30Hz. 

I thought that was so they could hear a tone when the tail went by in fast wind (ie high pitched because speeded up)?

I still don't see why a tail beep is necessary when takes are in discrete files, esp of the files are named w/ scene and take number.  A head mark/slate I can see the utility of, certainly, and a tail slate if there wasn't a head slate or something unusual happened during the take (2nd camera started late, oddball action, sound problem etc..).

Philip Perkins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do you prefer for a series to break apart the restart? 1 beep, more? and at the end would you want to hear they liked take # _?

If it's a bunch of takes together, we just call it a series (SER) and let the assistant editor sort it out. A couple of beeps at the end or a "and that's a cut" works fine.

I'd say if you have notes that they liked a particular take (like the last one), to me, that would be information for the sound report. No need to waste disk space describing it verbally.

I agree with Robert that more and more productions don't even yell "CUT" anymore. Suddenly in dailies, the film stops, the sound stops, and we're kind of bracing ourselves for more in post. I think it's sloppy, but I also recognize that every director has his or her own personal working method. Still, knowing the take is over helps, and I think the two beeps is a tradition with a reason and a purpose, even though it was originally just an analog convenience (like when cueing a Nagra, as Arnold says above).

I've been asking Zaxcom to add an "auto-beep" system to the end of Deva takes, just to drop in two half-second beeps whenever the stop button ends a file. So far, it hasn't happened, but I continue to hope...

--Marc W.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No beeps since file based recording for me.... Stopped at  the end of DAT recording.... File starts,  beginning of story, file ends, end of story.... It has been removed from my sequence of learned events....  It as we all know becomes automatic what we do each time....  I have unlearned the beeps...  I will not revisit that part of my life.... :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...