Classic Perspective....list of films

[Jethro_S]

Hi folks, once again we visit the perspective thing. How about listing your favorite films from the old school where perspective is king?

First Blood

Every Which Way but Loose

[old school]

Any old John Ford western, great sound with perspective to spare. A more rescent example might be found by imdb ing Jeff Wexler, or Don Coufal and watch some of their work, most done with 1 mic and a natural airy perspective. Also check out "A Touch of Evil" it's pretty wild sounding, but I'm not sure how they achieved the results, but what they got was great.

Regards, Old School

[Jeff Wexler]

A more rescent example might be found by imdb ing Jeff Wexler, or Don Coufal and watch some of their work, most done with 1 mic and a natural airy perspective.

Regards, Old School

Some of the nicest perspective recordings we've done, we did together on "An Officer and a Gentleman." There were several scenes of the cadets marching in formation doing the so-called "jody calls", one of these scenes starts out with the group at a great distance, marching towards camera and then going into a stone tunnel --- I really liked the way that sounded. Another invovled Lou Gosset, Jr. coming out of a building starting out very wide (about 4 figures high) and then addressing the group while walking right up to camera into a head and shoulders close-up. This we did with Fisher Boom so Don was able to really reach out the distance and track back to the close-up at the end. You have to remember that the film was made back when single camera work was the norm (with the exception being stunts, explosions and so forth), we carried the Fisher with us on most movies (using it both interior and exterior) and many shots were set up so that natural perspective sound, wonderfully appropriate for what the camera sees, could be achieved (and appreciated by all).

As a side note, here is the Wikipedia definition for "Jody call":

"In the armed services, a military cadence or cadence call is a sort of work song: a chant that is sung by military personnel while running or marching. In the United States, these cadences are sometimes called jody calls or jodies, after Jody, a recurring character who figures in some traditional cadences. Requiring no instruments to play, they are counterparts in oral military folklore of the military march. As a sort of work song, military cadences take their rhythms from the work being done (compare sea shanty.) Many cadences have a call and response structure; one soldier initiates a line, and the remaining soldiers complete it."

How nice it was that we could record these things properly and in a natural way with true camera perspective.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[t.elder]

Jim Jarmusch's last film, "Broken Flowers,"  had some nice perspective work, perhaps not as involved as "An Officer and a Gentlemen," but I definitely noticed and appreciated how the sound matched the size and perspective of the image.  I read an old interview with Jarmusch where he mentioned that he never used lavaliers on his films, certainly something to make many sound teams smile.

Since Jeff brought up the Fisher boom, I was wondering if anyone had any recollection of how some of the long walking and talking takes were done in "Annie Hall" or "Manhattan"?  I'm thinking of the long walk-and-talk down 65th street between Woody Allen and Tony Roberts in "Annie Hall" and the long four or five shot walk and talk down 5th Avenue in "Manhattan."  Were those with the Fisher boom?

Tim Elder

[Noah Timan]

Jim Jarmusch's last film, "Broken Flowers,"  had some nice perspective work, perhaps not as involved as "An Officer and a Gentlemen," but I definitely noticed and appreciated how the sound matched the size and perspective of the image. 

Drew Kunin, that film's mixer, is a very talented fellow who has made many movies sound great.  There are many soundtracks he has contributed to that are worthy of fandom.

Since Jeff brought up the Fisher boom, I was wondering if anyone had any recollection of how some of the long walking and talking takes were done in "Annie Hall" or "Manhattan"?  I'm thinking of the long walk-and-talk down 65th street between Woody Allen and Tony Roberts in "Annie Hall" and the long four or five shot walk and talk down 5th Avenue in "Manhattan."  Were those with the Fisher boom?

I imagine we'd have to ask Jimmy Sabat, but I really can't picture a walk and talk in Manhattan with a Fisher.  Nothing's impossible, but many things are exceptionally difficult.

Regards,

Noah Timan

[Brad Harper]

Although probably all body mics, Richard Linklater's Before Sunset is an incredible walk and talk in the streets of Paris. Almost half the movie is a walking shot. Good lord I would have hated to be on that one...

[Brad Harper]

As far as natural perspective, Citizen Kane is the first to come to mind. I really love The Searchers, but as I recall I seem to remember some forced perspective. I will have to watch it again soon. Jeff had some really nice perspective in Fight Club. Check it out again if you haven't seen it in a while. Of course, The Conversation and Cape Fear. On the newer side I liked In America and About Schmitt.

[old school]

Hey Jeff, great example of perspective from your body  of work. I also think your live recording of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" at the dance/ hook up scene is good example of another kind of perspective, the live perspective, in that it sells the time and place so much better than the best produced playback trx. ever could. You should explain how you did it some day.....  Hey Brad, I agree that "Citizen Kane" has a great sound track, but I seem to remember that Mr Wells came from radio theater and was very  good at the tricks of the trade, so I'm not so sure how much was production sound, and how much was post, but he sure did set an early standard.  "The Conversation" is the mobious loop (sp) of film school editing/ rerecording studies. I would credit the always interesting Walter Murch, editor and rerecording mixer with that great film and it's sound track....  While I've done open mic/ boom op'ed shots in NYC/ Manhatten, I would say that it is by an large 'radio mic city'.... but hey, thats only my perspective.

Regards, Old School

[Jeff Wexler]

I was wondering if anyone had any recollection of how some of the long walking and talking takes were done in "Annie Hall" or "Manhattan"?Tim Elder

All of the classic long walk-and-talks in the Woody Allen films were done wireless, beautifully by Jimmy Sabat and others. The sound team would almost always dolly the receivers, often mounted on a pallette of sorts, keeping them right on the side frame line and cabling back to the mixer. This is a technique which has many advantages over trying to put antennas out on long cables with loss and is still a technique which is used at times. Getting the receiver with its own antenna as close to the transmitter as possible is always a benefit.

-  JW

[soundwiz]

Hi,

i have been reading with curiosity the articles on perspective by the senior pros,

but one question has alwyas vexed me,

why doesnt the PRODUCTION SOUND MIXER get a single card main title?

i have been told that this is an arrangement done with the union regrding pay rates, not clear to me,

correct me if i am wrong

maybe Mr Wexler, Oldschool  and Rvd mixer could throw some light on this

i am young and learning the ropes doing film sound and perspective is what i am always looking for shot to  shot

Officer and a Gentleman was one of my favourite films while at school , now i like it for reasons other than the story line

as a personal request could Mr Wexler and other seniors  take time out to write a few lines  about how they  worked on these films when he didnt work with radios, just to knowhow different it was then compared to now,inputs from Don Coufal is also appreciated

thanks all

pl continue the thread

it is great being here

no wonder listening is more better than talking

Hari

[t.elder]

All of the classic long walk-and-talks in the Woody Allen films were done wireless, beautifully by Jimmy Sabat and others. The sound team would almost always dolly the receivers, often mounted on a pallette of sorts, keeping them right on the side frame line and cabling back to the mixer. This is a technique which has many advantages over trying to put antennas out on long cables with loss and is still a technique which is used at times. Getting the receiver with its own antenna as close to the transmitter as possible is always a benefit.

-  JW

I had a feeling that those shots were done with wireless as I couldn't imagine rolling a Fisher down 65th street.  What kind of wireless units and lavaliers were being used back in the late 70's.  Had Tram's been invented yet?  Sony ECM-50's?

Tim

[Sound Intuition]

Some of the nicest perspective recordings we've done, we did together on "An Officer and a Gentleman." There were several scenes of the cadets marching in formation doing the so-called "jody calls", one of these scenes starts out with the group at a great distance, marching towards camera and then going into a stone tunnel --- I really liked the way that sounded. Another invovled Lou Gosset, Jr. coming out of a building starting out very wide (about 4 figures high) and then addressing the group while walking right up to camera into a head and shoulders close-up. This we did with Fisher Boom so Don was able to really reach out the distance and track back to the close-up at the end. You have to remember that the film was made back when single camera work was the norm (with the exception being stunts, explosions and so forth), we carried the Fisher with us on most movies (using it both interior and exterior) and many shots were set up so that natural perspective sound, wonderfully appropriate for what the camera sees, could be achieved (and appreciated by all).

As a side note, here is the Wikipedia definition for "Jody call":

"In the armed services, a military cadence or cadence call is a sort of work song: a chant that is sung by military personnel while running or marching. In the United States, these cadences are sometimes called jody calls or jodies, after Jody, a recurring character who figures in some traditional cadences. Requiring no instruments to play, they are counterparts in oral military folklore of the military march. As a sort of work song, military cadences take their rhythms from the work being done (compare sea shanty.) Many cadences have a call and response structure; one soldier initiates a line, and the remaining soldiers complete it."

How nice it was that we could record these things properly and in a natural way with true camera perspective.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Philip Perkins]

All of the classic long walk-and-talks in the Woody Allen films were done wireless, beautifully by Jimmy Sabat and others. The sound team would almost always dolly the receivers, often mounted on a pallette of sorts, keeping them right on the side frame line and cabling back to the mixer. This is a technique which has many advantages over trying to put antennas out on long cables with loss and is still a technique which is used at times. Getting the receiver with its own antenna as close to the transmitter as possible is always a benefit.

-  JW

I had a feeling that those shots were done with wireless as I couldn't imagine rolling a Fisher down 65th street.  What kind of wireless units and lavaliers were being used back in the late 70's.  Had Tram's been invented yet?  Sony ECM-50's?

Tim

In the late '70's: all VHF non-diversity, Micron, Audio Limited, Vega (66/67 no Dynex), HME, Swintek.  Sony was making wireless too but I didn't know anyone who had them.    Lav--wise mostly ECM 50s and some small dynamic EV lavs that I don't recall the model number of as well as TRAMs, although I'm not sure they didn't show up a bit later.  I still sometimes "walk" long dolly shots with TX.  On a recent very long all telephoto/zoom  (fixed cam) walk talk that took place on a path with a fence on one side and a steep drop into a ditch full of water on the other (so nowhere to walk), we parked the TX rack (on battery power) in the center of the walk hidden in some bushes, and used two log periodic paddles pointing in either direction on a very tall stand next to the rack.  RF worked fine, and this was in a pretty busy area RF wise  (or at least we got thru THAT shot unscathed...). 

Philip Perkins

[Sound Intuition]

Sorry for the bizarre post earlier. I was trying to put in a quote and I guess I screwed it up. Here is what I was trying to say.

Jeff. A few years ago I was working on a film directed by Frank Pierson. I had the chance to do some "jody calls". When I read the script your tracks came to mind right away. I asked Frank in prep how he wanted to handle these scenes. What we ended up doing was getting some wild tracks on the boom first and then on the day I used the boom split with some wires on first team. If you were going to do a picture today with the same scene would you get the production to rent a fisher for the day (assuming you could still rent one) or would you send the perspective on the mix track for dailies and iso the other tracks on wires? This is of course no longer the days of single camera. I wonder outside of Don and maybe a handful of other  people how many working boom ops could even string a fisher? Did you guys have a favorite grip to drive it?

In regards to walk and talks. Does anyone no how Ken King did the scene in Pulp Fiction where John Travolta and Sam Jackson entre the apartment building for the first time talking about the foot massage. I think I counted about seven doors they went through comming down that hall. It did not look like a build or boomable. It was a hell of a stedi cam shot.

[Jeff Wexler]

I think we probably would resist wiring the lead actors individually for this kind of group jody call --- but maybe, as you point out, if it were multiple cameras we might (and then let someone else figure out if the iso tracks worked in any meaningful way to sweeten the whole track). I would still work to make the so-called "mix" track the best that it could be.

As far as using the Fisher today, they are of course still readily available, but you are right that there is a shortage of boom operators who really know the Fisher. We just had the first of several classes on boom operating, the first one featuring hands on experience with the boom. I am sure there were people in attendance who had only seen the Fisher boom in pictures of movies being made. The next class will feature a full on lecture from Don Coufal on the art of boom operating with an emphasis on understanding "what is Good Sound" and how to achieve it. Some might feel that this is a topic more appropriate for sound mixers, by a sound mixer, but I think that those of us that already have a really good understanding of good sound, know that this really starts with the boom operator and the microphone. There is little that can be done "back at the cart" by the sound mixer to make things good, erven with all the lastest and greatest devices there are, if it isn't happening at the mic in the hands of a good boom operator.

-  JW

[Philip Perkins]

No--you're right--it is a topic particularly for boom ops.  Lately I've had to explain to younger boom ops that just because you have the mic pointed at the actor who is talking doesn't mean your job is done--they need an awareness of where interfering noises are coming from so they work the mic's pattern to BOTH minimize them AND get sood sound.  They should know that they are not a human mic stand and that good sound requires an infinite and never-ending series of subtle adjustments made in response to critical listening of what the mic is hearing.  I also believe that they need to be mindful of "where they've been" in that take, setup, scene and the whole film and be thinking of how what they are doing right now will cut with what they've already done.  Booming a dramatic scene requires intense concentration and what fighter pilots call "situational awareness".

Philip Perkins

[Sound Intuition]

I think you guys are dead on with the importance of the boom op. They are as important as the focus puller. If the mic is not in the right place to begin with there is no magic that I can do to make it better. I wish that Dons class could have live streaming or at least live internet chat. It is so important to have a strong presence on the floor. A good boom op that understands lighting and can adapt to certain situations without compromising quality is worth his weight in gold. My boom op has been with me for almost 15 years now. It is not because I am a great mixer that I can keep him working but because WE are a good team. Do you guys always work with at least a three person team? I find that you have to always justify to the PM the merit of the third person and how it can only make the overall product better. I usually get a trainee or a daily boom never two full time booms. Sorry if this was off topic but I just had to jump in with my two cents in rergards to the importance of the boom.

[Noah Timan]

"Being There" is not only a great film with a great sound track, but I believe it's the last time a production mixer had a "main title" credit, single card?

Actually last year's "Good Night and Good Luck" gave Eddie Tise a full credit. 

[Jeff Wexler]

Actually last year's "Good Night and Good Luck" gave Eddie Tise a full credit. 

I was very pleased to see Ed Tise with an up front credit on "Good Night and Good Luck", it was a great movie and Ed's work was stellar --- a very good sounding movie. It is very rare that the Production Sound person gets a single card up front credit; there have been a few instances where a "Sound Design" credit has been in the front of the movie.

-  JW

[old school]

Wow, after sitting around for weeks, this original post has generated alot of good replys that seem to be splitting into two main streams. Pespective sound with good examples, and screen credits (a sore subject for many of us I'm sure), both of which are worth alot more posts. My guess is that we would all agree that perspective sound would be our first choice in recording film sound when the elements are with us and we have some control of the set. I live in the comercial world and I still record 90 plus percent of the time with 1 schoeps, or senn 70 at times, but I know alot of sound bros n sisters who radio the majority of their scenes, and they work many many day.....  So whats better? To my ears, the open mic, even with some extra background, it adds the perspective, or realness to the picture we are all trying to sell as "real". Now walkin-talkin long lens shots are a greaat time to use the radios for sure, probably the only way, but when it comes time to record two people at the table eating corn flakes radios sound like crap to my ears, but I hear it all the time on tv. I of course do not know whats outside the frame or other considerations of any given shot, but I suspect that other than the extra rental, some mixers feel more comfortable with the signal 2 noise ratio, and not the sound, and how it affects the picture, but this is only a guess. The good news is that we are working, and that there are no credits on comercials.

Regards, Old School

[Jeff Wexler]

Wow, after sitting around for weeks, this original post has generated alot of good replys that seem to be splitting into two main streams. Pespective sound with good examples, and screen credits (a sore subject for many of us I'm sure), both of which are worth alot more posts.Regards, Old School

Credits for "Flashdance":  GRUNT the dog got screen credit...  who was the boom operator?

-  JW

[robaudio]

I was thrilled to see First Blood on your list. Several things contributed to this being a perspective film. First of all it was a one camera show, except for stunts etc. It was a film with the lead shirtless a lot of the time. And finally, it was week two of this film that I purchased my first Schoeps microphone, a real eye and ear opener for me.

Personally I think that this kind of thing is getting more and more difficult to achieve with multiple cameras, often more than two, whispering actors and bad location choices. And not to forget the directors who say "everyone should be wired all the time". I find the Schoeps is used less and less. I seem to take is out only when dealing with professiona seasoned actors with real voices.

Re: Credits

I have recieved one front screen single card credit. It was a small low budget film that was never released but I did see the credit at a screening at the mixing theatre but did not have a camera with me.

The only mixer who recieves front screen credit these days is veteran British mixer Simon Kaye. He must have a good contract. A lot of British films and television have good perspective sound, perhaps an old BBC tradition.

Best to all

Rob Young

[Noah Timan]

but I know alot of sound bros n sisters who radio the majority of their scenes, and they work many many day.....  So whats better?

I think you'd agree that "better" sound (for a discerning ear on the level we are discussing) and how often you get work do not have the correlation that we wished they would, particularly in the commercial world...the fact of the matter is that we are hired by people who don't necessarily even understand sound and, in many cases, do not want to understand it.  On a big feature sometimes it's different, but on a commercial?

.02

[old school]

Hey Noah, I would agree that better sound and getting the job do not correlate, but we always give them the best quality sound track we can, whether production wants it or not. But you are right, in commercials, we are largly hired because they like us better than the other guy/girl.....  Hey Jeff, nice of you to remind me of that freakin dog Grunt, That mangy kur was in maybe 12 shots, and I boomed my brains out for 60 plus dayz and recieved no credit. (98% of that film was recorded with one mic, it's not as if I was kicked back at the sound cart cooking burgers with Jim Webb) but I'm not bitter, I just love to rant. I haven't seen that film since the cast n crew screening, so I really can't remember any great perspective shots in Flashdance, But Jim, Bill Macpherson, and I did record a good example on the "Milagro Beanfeild War". For those who saw it, when the Sheriff asks Joe why he is growing the beans, and Joe says 'look around' and they do as a clap of thunder rolls down the mountain with great perspective and counter point to the sceen. Could it have been done in post? Sure. Would it have been as good? No offense to our Post bros n sisters, but I doubt it. Well back to work, another sunday on the set, doing a Apple commercial.

Regards, Old School

[Guest JPorter]

I am going to add The French Connection to the list.

Lots of perspective style in this film.  My fav is near the beginning when Gene and Roy are kicking the snot out of a perp

A really raw sounding film in my opinion.