Pre-Roll : Still an issue ?

[mikefilosa]

Time sure does fly ..... I now realize that it has been YEARS since I've sat in a telecine session, or any

post situation whatsoever.  I mix and mix and send off shiny disks, and generally wait until I get to see and hear things on some sort of screen sometime / someday.

I have been blessed with a past history of field recording and post involvement in the early years of my career as a staff mixer / recordist / postee in two situations, but I've been freelance for quite awhile now, and it has distanced me from hands-on post work.  Since the advent of Time Code, Pre-Roll was a significant concern - less than 5 secs of usable code was a violation!

Since my first Deva, nearly 11 years ago, I have been working almost exclusively with free-run TC and using Pre-Record set for 10 secs. Next to the Deva itself, I think the pre-record function is the most fabulous attribute ever invented for our business.  (In third place - AutoLoad!!)

Thanks Glenn, Howy, all of Zaxcom - and John Coffey, who I'm certain was a prime motivator in the development of these attributes and innovations for our hard-disk recording world.

Now that the world is seemingly entirely file-based - I need to ask the players and authorities in the post world - How important is Pre-Roll anymore? 

Certainly it doesn't hurt to have some, but what is really absolutely necessary nowadays?

10 sec? 5sec ? 2sec?  What does post really need to make things work?

Is machine to machine "lockup" of any importance at all anymore?

It's pretty much computer to computer now, correct? 

Mike Filosa, CAS

Atlanta

[RPSharman]

I don't know what's necessary, which is your question, but I like setting my 10 second pre-roll.  It's handy for many reasons that have nothing to do with post, but with the production environment.  The modern AC barely waits for the 1st AD to call "roll sound" before hitting the sticks, let alone waiting for the boom operator to say "sound speed".  It's also handy when you are talking to the director about something for the shot or from the previous take, and the the 1st AD calls "roll sound" before you even get back to the chair.  Ugh!  I usually just yell "sound speed" as I continue walking to the chair.  10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1.

Robert

[t.elder]

More than a few seconds' worth of pre-roll is not as necessary now as it was in the linear tape days for telecine purposes - the machines lock to timecode very quickly now.  But it's still necessary for all of the reasons Robert mentioned.  I set the machine for five seconds pre roll and give it a few seconds before calling speed.  I also give it a bit of post-roll so the machine doesn't lose timecode at the end and wreak havoc.

-Tim

[RPSharman]

Good point, Tim.  I never turn off the machine until a couple of seconds after the camera is cut.

[chrisnewton]

I'll add to Tim's points about pre-and post roll that you sometimes get a few seconds of the best roomtone in those moments. Most often though it's somebody yakking or the sound of a tapemeasure being extended/retracted.

Chris Newton

[mikefilosa]

I am grateful for the observations, but I'm hoping some post guys can chime in on the pre-roll questions as well .....

Logically, as field mixers, it would be pretty stupid to not take advantage of the built in pre-record functions of our recorders.  The 5 - 10 seconds of pad is totally inconsequential with the total amount of data we might turn in for the day.... 

And I experience the exact same things that you report here... if I have an adjustment to make I am barely in my chair before the camera is rolling and the slate is up. 

On some jobs with AutoLoad working for me (camera code drives MY machine), I have occasionally heard "Action!" slightly before the decks are actually rolling!! This is scary, but there is always a second or two of pause before the event, and although I might look for assurance to the DIT at the trigger switch, I've yet to ever get a complaint.  Of course, I take a moment to politely try to slow things down just a bit.... 

This makes me think that Pre-Roll is no longer an issue in Post AT ALL - so I'm just seeking verification.

If that is the case.... then the benefit of our pre-record capabilities have been somewhat usurped by the pace of today's sets, and the gradual degradation of set protocols ....

Thusly, regarding any new machinery that might be in development, or being considered -

is it safe to say that 5 seconds of pre-record is not enough?

(Some days, I'd like 15!)

Michael Filosa, CAS

Atlanta

[Philip Perkins]

I'd agree that with file based recording for both sound and video preroll isn't much of a deal anymore (yay!). The main reason for the x second preroll now is that the whole division between "rolling" and "not rolling" has been blurred on purpose by directors who want things to be much more casual and flowy with no military style commands being shouted and loud claps being done before they start their scene.  The want the scene to kind of just happen without any extra fuss, esp with non-actors in front of the cameras.  I have had specific discussions on this topic with a number of directors--and thus is what they wanted, so being able to "go back 10 seconds" etc at the start of a roll is very helpful (as is free-run TC).

Philip Perkins

[Marc Wielage]

This makes me think that Pre-Roll is no longer an issue in Post AT ALL - so I'm just seeking verification...

We need pre-roll in post just because the producers and non-technical studio execs will go nuts if they see dailies without any accompanying sound, even prior to the scene starting. :10 seconds of pre-record buffer usually eliminates this problem. Also, editors get very nervous if there's a visual clap but no sound to go with it (understandably). We also like the pre-roll to have an audible slate from the sound mixer, just in the event of catastrophe, where we have to go through the sound files manually.

The Fostex players (DV40 and DV824's) will automatically create their own "blank" pre-roll area prior to the start of the sound file, so technically, the piece of sound doesn't technically need preroll in order to lock up to film or video. So it's not like DAT or 1/4" Nagra tape in that regard.

But that assumes the timecode is correct. If things go bad (and it does happen), sometimes each take has to be cued manually, and in certain situations, we do need valid timecode prior to the start of the file. This is a particular problem if the camera misses the timecode slate, or if you're shooting film, or if you're shooting film-style video where the camera and sound timecode don't match.

BTW, I've told sound mixers before, if you accidentally stop the recorder and then re-start it a few seconds later, it almost doesn't matter for traditional dailies. The Fostex decks will keep a continuous stream of timecode going, so the take will stay in sync, even if the sound drops out. We do appreciate second sticks at the end of the scene, just to confirm that everything is OK. That's assuming the camera kept rolling as well. If they both stopped, then everything has to be re-synced, usually at the point at which the picture restarted.

--Marc W.