My First Reality Show. I need some advice.

[justanross]

Hi Guys,

It's looks like I'm gonna be doing a weight loss reality show.  I have a SD 442, at most I will be running four wires.  It's a one camera show for the most part, except for bigger days, they might bring out another camera.

They are thinking about multi-tracking this year.  I've suggested the 788 but I think I can get away with it on a 744.  What are your thoughts?  On the 744 can a make a stereo mix and do four ISO tracks?  I would be using a denecke SB3 into the camera.  Should I run it 24hr free run?  I will also be tied to the camera giving it a stereo mix. 

Any advice you can give me or anything I might be missing would help.  Thanks guys.

[Philip Perkins]

Hi Guys,

It's looks like I'm gonna be doing a weight loss reality show.  I have a SD 442, at most I will be running four wires.  It's a one camera show for the most part, except for bigger days, they might bring out another camera.

They are thinking about multi-tracking this year.  I've suggested the 788 but I think I can get away with it on a 744.  What are your thoughts?  On the 744 can a make a stereo mix and do four ISO tracks?  I would be using a denecke SB3 into the camera.  Should I run it 24hr free run?  I will also be tied to the camera giving it a stereo mix. 

Any advice you can give me or anything I might be missing would help.  Thanks guys.

Many more experienced people with this here than I, but a few small suggestions:

A: do not be "tied" to the camera--do a wireless hop from one of your output pairs on the mixer.

B: A 744 is a 4 track, so no, you can't do a stereo mix and 4 isos.  You can, however, have the camera

(via the camera hop) be the recorder of the stereo mix and your 744 can then do the 4 isos.

C: What camera?  Most video cameras will want both TC and sync in order to not have issues trying to follow ext TC.  That means a Lockit, if you are going to go this way, not an SB3.  You might want to try some tests and see what the drift is with just a jam--no Lockit  or SB3.  Or you can take wireless TC to you from a camera.  Since there might be multiple cameras, you should find out how they plan to sync the cams to each other, and figure out if you can get yourself onto that system.  Free run TC, absolutely.

System tests, definitely.

Philip Perkins

[Derek H]

Philip has given great advice.  I would add that the multi-track may not be absolutely necessary, plenty of shows like this have been recorded straight to camera.  I would include the editing team in your discussion of workflow as they may not be on-board with a dual system scenario and may just want(or expect) it mixed to tape.  Not trying to advocate the easy path but it would also streamline your work as well. 

However with this approach I would insist that if they plan on bringing in extra cameras for anything other than B-Roll that you insist that they need to hire on an additional, fully equipped mixer per additional camera for the day as well so you don't get thrown under the bus trying to be in two places at once.  (been there)

Best of luck!

[studiomprd]

" That means a Lockit "

or a Denecke SB-T

[justanross]

Thanks Gentlemen.

Yes Derek I totally agree with you.  I still waiting to hear if they wanna do multi-track.  I'm just trying to get a jump on things.  All your input has been very good so far.

As for the wireless camera hop.  They are not willing to pay for one so I'm not giving it up for free.  I know it might make my life easier but can't do it.

Thanks again guys.

[studiomprd]

" I know it might make my life easier   "

they know that, they are counting on that...

" ...but can't do it. "

they are not counting on that!

good for you!

real producers know what they need, and generally pay for it, even if grudgingly...

[ProSound]

As for the wireless camera hop.  They are not willing to pay for one so I'm not giving it up for free.  I know it might make my life easier but can't do it.

While I agree 100 percent on not giving things away for free as someone who has done about 300 days of Reality sound in the last two years I won't work without my Zaxcom Hop. In the fast pace world of reality tv I view a hop as a requirement and not a "Just make life easier" piece of gear. I can't tell you the amount of dangerous positions camera people have to put themselves in to get shots and how often they run unexpectedly when unneeded. Not being wireless to camera puts you in dangerous situations that aren't needed. I also like to set up in the other room when possible and sit down if your wired you can't do that. It also prevents you from concentrating on mixing and boom as well since you always have to keep an eye on your camera op to make sure you aren't pulling him over. Just my 2 cents I only cable to camera for interviews and shoots on sticks thats it. Remember this motto "When Camera Runs Sound Walks"

[RPSharman]

While I agree 100 percent on not giving things away for free as someone who has done about 300 days of Reality sound in the last two years I won't work without my Zaxcom Hop. In the face pace world of reality tv I view a hop as a requirement and not a "Just make life easier" piece of gear. I can't tell you the amount of dangerous positions camera people have to put themselves in to get shots and how often they run unexpectedly when unneeded. Not being wireless to camera puts you in dangerous situations that aren't needed. I also like to set up in the other room when possible and sit down if your wired you can't do that. It also prevents you from concentrating on mixing and boom as well since you always have to keep an eye on your camera op to make sure you aren't pulling him over. Just my 2 cents I only cable to camera for interviews and shoots on sticks thats it. Remember this motto "When Camera Runs Sound Walks"

Perhaps a smart thing to do would be to have the wireless hop with you in the trunk of your car for the first day or two, and you can see if the DP is your ally.  When he/she bitches to the director and/or producer about having to be tethered, you can let them know you can "have a hop after lunch or tomorrow if they are willing to pay the extra rental".  Let them tell you 'no' in front of everyone.  If they still say 'no' to the DP, then you can decide if it's worth giving it to them for your own personal convenience.

Tread lightly,

Robert

[Nicole Hankerson]

Remember this motto "When Camera Runs Sound Walks"

I like that motto. Get your 552 yet?

Nicole

[Philip Perkins]

I agree about the cam hop.  For me doing doco sound while tethered is at least 50% harder than wireless, and I feel like I do about 50% less good a job.  On verite/runaround stuff with a wire I'm always in the wrong place: for sound, for camera, for the talent--the whole job becomes about dealing with the damn wire.  Over it.  I don't want to advise you to impoverish yourself, but do whatever you can to get a hop onto the job.  EVERYONE will thank you, eventually.

Philip Perkins

[studiomprd]

" They are not willing to pay for one so I'm not giving it up for free. "

another thought on this is that my quote for a job that should have a hop will include the hop, it will not be an ala carte` option!

[ProSound]

that my quote for a job that should have a hop will include the hop, it will not be an ala carte` option!

I agree 100 percent I include it in the quote and don't let them have an option. Since I view it as part of my basic kit

[justanross]

Hey Guys,

I have taken your advice and I'm going to rent a camera hop.  The camera operator is a dink with sound guys.  Espically when they are tied into him.

So just to avoid that crap and from the suggestions of you guys that have done this before, I'm gonna do it.  Thanks for all the advice, been very helpful.

[ProSound]

One more note: The operator must always listen when a hop is used to make sure audio is there since you cannot listen since your wireless.

[justanross]

One more note: The operator must always listen when a hop is used to make sure audio is there since you cannot listen since your wireless.

Yes, thank you for reminding me.  I think he is aware since he prefers to be wireless.

[mikefilosa]

Guys and Gals -

4-5K wireless hops are absolutely NOT part of any basic package. Period.

If you give away such an investment, that is also very susceptible to damage (on the camera),

you do a tremendous disservice to the essence of ANY business model -

which is basically RETURN ON INVESTMENT.

And you are a dbag - unless you are a registered non-profit.

Such behavior is KILLING this business.  Try to look beyond next week / month ... it's called a career.

Here's an idea.... work for a couple of days without one, then have them price one from a rental house

(include shipping, of course).

Here's another idea - if camera needs their freedom, why isn't it part of the CAMERA package?

That wouldn't bother me at all....

Let THEM give it away if production demands it....

(BTW, a dink camera grunt is going to continue being a dink camera grunt.

I guess you'll be getting plenty of lessons in mindreading and attitude - get ready for the ride, do your best, and get your defensive game ready - remember, a dink camera grunt's shot is always steadier at it's widest!)

I truly hate this reality genre..... it is killing television in every way, a tremendous race to the bottom in every aspect.  These shows do not deliver the quality audiences that give advertisers the bang they need for the bucks.... that is why there is a growing shift to web marketing, and it will continue to accelerate  now that Nielsen has figured out how to properly measure the eyeballs. 

Mike Filosa, CAS

Atlanta

[RPSharman]

I think there is a mix of ideas here.

Justan has already quoted the job, and seems to have made it clear that this quote does NOT include the wireless hop.  While this may have been a mistake, this is his current situation.

Mike is correct.  This should not be given away, as it will soon be expected.

If everyone agrees to always include the hop in the quote, then it's not an issue, but I expect there are plenty of shows (maybe on the non-professional level) that cannot afford the wireless hop.  So it remains that each time one bids on a job, one must decide to bid high and state the hop is included, or bid lower and state that it is not included.

In the end, if they do not agree to pay for a hop, but you think you can't do the job properly or professionally without one, then turn the job down.

I think Justan should only use the hop if it's paid for, provided he was clear that it was not included in his original quote.  If the operator doesn't like being cabled, then he can rent the hop himself.  What he wants is NOT Justan's concern.  But we should also realize that this is the first job of this type for him, so it can be simply considered a learning experience that he will take with him to the next negotiation.

Robert

[Philip Perkins]

The hop doesn't need to cost $4-5K.  That would buy you the best gear going, but a low budg reality show or doc isn't using the best of anything--cameras included.  Older radios work fine as hops, if you can figure out how to rig them.  Later analog Lectros sound good on line in, and have range very comparable to 411s.  In some situations even lesser radios might be fine too-remember that they are post the mixer's limiters and do not need to have their micpres used.  The possible sacrifice in audio quality is very likely worth it if you as the soundie are more likely to be able to be WHERE you need to be WHEN you need to be there, and are concentrating fully on mixing, booming and staying out of the shot instead of have ALL those things prioritized AFTER wrangling the cable.

Philip Perkins

[justanross]

Yes Robert you make some excellent points.  I do not plan to pay for this on my own.  I'm gonna get a price on rental.  I'll pass it along to production saying the camera department has requested this item.  I start the job friday.  I may give it a try without it.

Mike I totally agree.  I think too much is being put upon on us.  They want us to do more for less and expect to get perfect sound.

I did find out that when there is a second camera there will be another sound guy with me.

[Nicole Hankerson]

Good luck with everything and lets us know how it goes.

Also have you been in contact or know who the other sound guy is? Just curious.

Nicole

[studiomprd]

"  I'll pass it along to production saying the camera department has requested this item.  "

EXACTLY!!

[justanross]

Good luck with everything and lets us know how it goes.

Also have you been in contact or know who the other sound guy is? Just curious.

Nicole

Hey Nicole,

Well I'm in Calgary Alberta, so there is only a handful of sound guys up here, lol.  So yes I know him and he has much more experience then I do.  I'm just gonna do the best I can with the tools I have. 

[justanross]

RVD,

Producers around here know what is in a basic sound package.  When I gave them my quote I never included camera hop in it.  It was never discussed that i needed one until it was suggested on here I get one AND I talked to the camera op asking if he'd like me to have one.  I'm waiting til monday so I can call some rental places and find out prices.  Then I will pass that along to production.

As for the recorder and sync box and all that Jazz.  They still haven't decided if they want to go that route.  I have given them my prices if they do want to go that way.

I always do my basic package as, mixer, boom, two wires as 500 for a 10 hour day.  Any other gear, more wires, comtek, etc is extra.  I make sure they are aware of this.

And you are right, I should not have called him a dink.  He is actually very good at what he does.  He really just doesn't care about the sound guy.  You'll just be standing there and suddenly he'll run without telling you.  Then he gets a tug on the line.  He'll turn around and tear a strip off you for screwing up his shot.  Basically he just goes does what he wants and gives you as little info as possible.

[John Steigerwald]

And you are right, I should not have called him a dink.  He is actually very good at what he does.  He really just doesn't care about the sound guy.  You'll just be standing there and suddenly he'll run without telling you.  Then he gets a tug on the line.  He'll turn around and tear a strip off you for screwing up his shot.  Basically he just goes does what he wants and gives you as little info as possible.

No, sounds like you had it right.

[Philip Perkins]

Finally, I think the lesson learned here may be that you must be clear when quoting for your equipment, I think it was Phillip that said he includes the price of the "hop" in his quote.  So if you need to rent a "hop" then add that cost into your basic package, or be clear to all that it isn't included in your basic package fee.

Good Luck,

RVD

I did not say that, and didn't mean it either.  My pricing is entirely "situational"--it depends on the job, what I perceive their budget to be, how I've decided I can do the job the best for me and them and what I think I can get away with.  Even cheap hops are still a lot of money, so I don't take their inclusion in a package lightly, and generally charge what I think the gear in question is worth.  My point in this exchange  w/ the OP is that to deal with the situations he describes w/ "Mr. Dink", he needs to be wireless.  Maybe "Mr. Dink" will enter the discussion the OP is having w/ the producers of his show--that would be great for all involved.  And that even if the current state of the art hop can't be afforded on their budget, a lesser and cheaper hop would still be a very good idea.

Philip Perkins