Back up Discs...Mix or ISO/Mix

[Michael P Clark]

I've been thinking of a cart reconfigure and have been debating on whether or not a complete backup of my ISO/Mix disc is necessary. I know some mixers that do a complete backup, and some who do mix only. I currently go the ISO/Mix and Mix only backup/telecine route.

How do you roll?

[Jeff Wexler]

I only do one disc that gets sent in. This is the way I have always done it. Telecine gets their hands on it first (at least here in the US) and typically instructed to transfer Track 1 only for use in dailies transfer. Track 1 will always be my production mix track and it is the easiest and most straightforward track to locate and access regardless of what sort of playout machine is in place in telecine (older DV-40, newer Fostex machine, etc.). The same disc, or a clone of that disc made by the facility (not me) goes to picture editorial if they wish to have access to all tracks immediately --- some picture departments want this, others do not and are content to have just the one mix track. The disc also goes to sound editorial when they want it.

I don't see any reason for the first primary optical disc that I make on the set to NOT have all the tracks. I know that people refer to this disc as a "backup" (and that's a whole other discussion we have had before) and if so, shouldn't it have all tracks on it? When the picture department wants all the tracks and certainly the sound editorial department will want them, how do you deliver all those tracks?

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Michael P Clark]

I guess I should've referred to the Backup disc as coming from a completely separate recorder. Not a clone. I'll adjust the question to reflect that.

My current setup involves a 744t(mix only) and Boom Recorder(ISO/Mix), and I've been debating on using the Boom Recorder and 788t in full backup mode, or just using the 744t(mix) and 788t(iso/mix).

[Darren]

Ditto Jeff!

I only do one disc that gets sent in. This is the way I have always done it. Telecine gets their hands on it first (at least here in the US) and typically instructed to transfer Track 1 only for use in dailies transfer. Track 1 will always be my production mix track and it is the easiest and most straightforward track to locate and access regardless of what sort of playout machine is in place in telecine (older DV-40, newer Fostex machine, etc.). The same disc, or a clone of that disc made by the facility (not me) goes to picture editorial if they wish to have access to all tracks immediately --- some picture departments want this, others do not and are content to have just the one mix track. The disc also goes to sound editorial when they want it.

I don't see any reason for the first primary optical disc that I make on the set to NOT have all the tracks. I know that people refer to this disc as a "backup" (and that's a whole other discussion we have had before) and if so, shouldn't it have all tracks on it? When the picture department wants all the tracks and certainly the sound editorial department will want them, how do you deliver all those tracks?

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[soundtrane]

Same here!

-vin

[Michael P Clark]

OK, so I added another answer to whole question. This one is for those that don't roll a backup machine.

[soundtrane]

Sorry Mike...

[Darren]

I do run a back up machine.  I just don't burn any discs from it, or use its material for anything else.  The audio simply remains on its hard drive.  It is there for worse case scenarios only to be used in the hopefully never occurring situation where the the audio from the primary recorder cannot be used due to a total failure.

OK, so I added another answer to whole question. This one is for those that don't roll a backup machine.

[Michael P Clark]

Boy can words on the screen get confusing. I assumed that most people actually burned their backups and turned them in with their master discs. On that note....Darren, therefore, I assume your backup recorder is a full backup of ISO/Mix?

[Noah Timan]

I've been thinking of a cart reconfigure and have been debating on whether or not a complete backup of my ISO/Mix disc is necessary. I know some mixers that do a complete backup, and some who do mix only. I currently go the ISO/Mix and Mix only backup/telecine route.

How do you roll?

I concur with Jeff, and have never understood why people make a backup with a one or two track mix only when they have the capabilities to do a full backup of everything, regardless of the number of recorders (unless the backup recorder is only capable of one or two tracks, of course).

Isn't the purpose of the backup to provide a second copy if the primary recorder fails, or the operator fails to operate the primary recorder properly?  If this happened, wouldn't you want to have everything backed up, and not just the mix?

I have always guessed that people submit a mix-only disc to telecine because they are afraid of the isos getting transferred to dailies accidentally, but I haven't ever seen this happen, at least to the best of my knowledge.  All of the telecine houses I have dealt with seem to know that the mix track will be on track one and this is SOP (even though I confirm it with them, list it as such on the reports, labels, etc). 

.02 nvt

[tom williams]

I agree with Jeff here. I have only ever sent one disc that telecine first gets and that is then sent off to post. It's my understanding that telecine many times makes their own clones but that's after me. I do record all tracks to Metacorder but almost never have to turn them in, they reside on my outboard drive and I hand in from my Deva. Noah is right in that telecine is interested in the fastest way to turn the tracks around and is only interested in the mix track which in my case is track 1.

Tom

[Michael P Clark]

So far this is not the response I thought this would get. Out of the mixers I know and worked with, more have their Backup/Telecine disc contain a mix track only, and no full backup, except on their recorders of course. And as Noah stated, my concern here is if one of my recorders fails(which happened yesterday, for only one take), I would have a complete recording(ISO/Mix) on the other recorder.

Thanks, keep them coming...

[Jeff Wexler]

Boy can words on the screen get confusing. I assumed that most people actually burned their backups and turned them in with their master discs. On that note....Darren, therefore, I assume your backup recorder is a full backup of ISO/Mix?

The confusion set in early here and then escalated with a multitude of answers (but many answering a question which wasn't really the question) ... confusing? It all goes back (no pun intended) to this understanding of the use of the word "backup". The whole idea of even thinking about a backup really only began with the DAT machines and the backup had to mean using another machine (properly and fed in parallel to the primary machine). We made a backup by running another recorder because we were worried that the primary recorder might fail --- and they did fail and we would have to use the backup. Cut to present day when we are all doing file based recording, another issue has arisen and that is DATA backup (or clone) and there are some people who still run 2 machines because they are worried the primary recorder will fail. So, when the question is asked about what we turn in at the end of the day it is somewhat dependent on what recording methods we are using. We are all doing file based recordings now but each machine handles the issue of daily deliverable differently (and as pointed out elsewhere, post production requirements are different all over the world so what they need at the end of the day could well be different in France than it is in the US).

I think if everyone reads all the answers carefully, the answer that Michael is looking for is buried somewhere in there.

-  Jeff Wexler

[RPSharman]

For several films in a row, I recorded only a mono mix to my 744T and turned in only one DVD-RAM with that mix on it.  My Boom Recorder recorded the mix and ISO tracks.  This lived with me on 2 drives, one I kept at the end of the show and one I turned in to editorial at the end of the show.  Occasionally I was asked for an ISO from my BR during production, in which case I sent a DVD-R to the editor or delivered it in some other manner.

These days I have the 788T and 744T.  I do run both machines, but only burn and turn in the DVD-RAM from the 788T, with the mix on channel 1 and the ISO tracks.  At the end of the last show, I turn in a hard drive with ALL files from the 788T and the 744T.  Not sure why I still turned in the 744T files at the end, other than for the fact that they are there.  I also was having limiter issues on the 788T, and I felt comfortable knowing the mix on the 744T was exactly what I expected.

I still like the idea of running two machines, although I have neither had a machine failure nor a DVD-RAM failure on my Sound Devices machines --- knock on wood.

Robert

[Phil Palmer]

I've never figured out why the back-up disk and back-up recorder is such a hot button subject.  But it remains as such.

I run 2 machines, the back up recorder is a 2 track machine and only exists for a telecine back-up.  It is the mix track only, and allows a telecine session to go uninterrupted in the middle of the night in the case that the Master Disk fails for any reason.  It has happened, and probably will happen soon just because we're writing about it....  I had a disk failure last night in fact, but we caught it early.

[Jeff Wexler]

I run 2 machines, the back up recorder is a 2 track machine and only exists for a telecine back-up.  It is the mix track only, and allows a telecine session to go uninterrupted in the middle of the night in the case that the Master Disk fails for any reason.

Since it has never happened to me, what is a "disk failure", where and when does this happen and who discovers it? I certainly have had bad disks before but this has always been discovered by me, either right away when formatting the disk, or later during mirroring --- I just use another disk in these cases. Please explain how this happens.

I used to run 2 machines, my Deva and a DAT machine, primarily to accomplish the same thing you mention above --- uninterrupted dailies session. I would send in both media but what I was really backing up was a failure by the facility not a potential failure of my recorders or media.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Michael P Clark]

Yes the answer is here. Let me apologize for the poor execution on my part. But I tried to keep it simple and straight forward, as to not start a whole "Do you run a backup" debate. This question was originally geared towards those that actually run two recorders. Ultimately, I'm simply posing the question to see how many are actually using the backup as a "full" backup. I am considering a different workflow and have the ability to go either way with it. This question can aid in that decision.

[Darren]

Like Jeff, I've probably had 3 or 4 discs over the years that were problematic.  They fact that they were defective was obvious immediately upon initiating the burn, and also like Jeff, I simply discarded them and immediately swapped them out for fresh discs.  I have never had a disc that burned successfully but was deemed unreadable by telecine.

To answer the question at hand, my backup recorder is for the mix only.

[Philip Perkins]

On the stuff I work on there is tremendous time pressure to get some audio to telecine, and there is (it seems) zero interest in sending anything but a mono or 2-mix off that way.  I HAVE had delivering all the iso tracks to telecine cause confusion and delay, so I send people the tracks I think they will use and nothing else.  Telecine gets a 2-mix DVDRAM or DVD-R, and if there are isos they either go on their own DVD (short job) or a hard-disk will ALL the isos (long job) that gets sent directly to editorial.  Also, nowadays there is often a data-dumpist on set (for video shoots), so another deliver method is to give all the tracks to them in separate folders (mix/isos).

Philip Perkins

[Jeff Wexler]

On the stuff I work on there is tremendous time pressure to get some audio to telecine, and there is (it seems) zero interest in sending anything but a mono or 2-mix off that way.  I HAVE had delivering all the iso tracks to telecine cause confusion and delay, so I send people the tracks I think they will use and nothing else.

Philip Perkins

One more comment I will make (which really only relates to what we deliver daily, not whether we run 2 machines or not) has to do with the devices we use. For me, since I almost exclusively use a Deva, if I were to want to make more than one disc, one that is mix only, another that is all tracks, etc., this would be more work and more time. The easiest for me is to turn in one disc when they say wrap (and it will be available to turn moments after they say the word) and that disc has everything on it. I do understand that their is a potential for telecine to screw it up and not transfer just track 1 as instructed, but it will never be a repeat of the screw ups that used to happen with 2-track DAT and 1/4" where they combined tracks, etc. I am also at this point not going to devote a lot of energy to covering the screw ups at the post facility --- if they transfer an iso on track 6 and deliver that to the picture department, that is not a mistake that I should have to explain.

For people using recording systems that do not produce the requested deliverable easily or timely, the issue of what disc to send in and what is on it may require a little more thought. This is partially the question that Michael originally asked I believe. There are, of course, those who run 2 machines/systems just so they can deliver 2 discs, or media, with different track configurations, but this is not something I am going to do.

[Guest BobD]

  An ISO mix on my 606, and a two track mix on my 744T...  All data is retained on my drives, 2 discs burned at the same time (real time)...  The ISO given to production in a separate container labeled EDIT only....  to go ONLY to the editor to use if and as need. No extra time, no extra hassle, no confusion.

  Why not provide the ISO tracks..... Give THEM the discs, the responsibility is then on them to do what has been communicated, and labeled. I've done and delivered all I can, all with the extra work of a format and a button push.

  If somehow something happens down the road due to confusion, what can I say, they're all supposed to be professionals

[Philip Perkins]

   An ISO mix on my 606, and a two track mix on my 744T...  All data is retained on my drives, 2 discs burned at the same time (real time)...  The ISO given to production in a separate container labeled EDIT only....  to go ONLY to the editor to use if and as need. No extra time, no extra hassle, no confusion.

  Why not provide the ISO tracks..... Give THEM the discs, the responsibility is then on them to do what has been communicated, and labeled. I've done and delivered all I can, all with the extra work of a format and a button push.

  If somehow something happens down the road due to confusion, what can I say, they're all supposed to be professionals

This is pretty much what I do--re ISOs to edit only ( and so labelled )  and the 2 mix only to telecine.  But I have what is kind of an old-fashioned setup anymore, with the 2 mix going to a SD recorder (w/ DVDRAM or a DVD-burn from a CF card) and the isos recorded to computer (hard disk) via Metacorder.

Philip Perkins

[Jeff Wexler]

   An ISO mix on my 606, and a two track mix on my 744T...  All data is retained on my drives, 2 discs burned at the same time (real time)...

The "2 discs burned at the same time" is accomplished by running 2 machines, right? The confusion continues in relation to the original question (which implied the use of 2 machines). I think that anytime you want to send in 2 discs you either have to be running 2 machines or if running only 1 machine (whether a dedicated hardware recorder, Fostex, Deva, SD) you have to get that machine to make 2 discs, one at a time. Now, if one of your devices is a computer (BoomRecorder, Metacorder) this double burn should not be so difficult to accomplish, but it will still take time at the end of the day.

- Jeff Wexler

[Marc Wielage]

Since it has never happened to me, what is a "disk failure", where and when does this happen and who discovers it?

It happens in post, when the production sound disk can't be read by any machine, or the directory is bad, or won't be recognized by the drive. It doesn't happen often.

On the rare cases we received bad Deva disks for dailies in post, usually the problem happened for one of three reasons: 1) the disk wasn't formatted; 2) the disk drive was out of alignment [and usually another DVD-RAM player could eventually read it]; 3) the disk itself is bad.

I've often had cases where X number of tracks didn't get mirrored on to the DVD-RAM disk, and they're just missing. Having had to wear the other hat where I'm making the disk (instead of being the post worker bee who gets the disk), I understand too well how this can happen. I wish there was a quick way to check all the DVD on the Deva itself, just to make sure the disk is OK. The only solution to me is just to be extremely careful and keep an eye on what and how the Deva is mirroring. In a perfect world, I'd check the disk's directory on a laptop, but there's usually no time to do this on a busy set. Bear in mind that the Deva (and Cantar and SD recorders) each depend on a $75 DVD-RAM drive. It's a drag when the $14,000 recorder is fine, but the $75 drive craps out and makes a bad disk.

Me personally, I can see many pros and cons on the idea of delivering a backup disk. Jeff is right in that the Deva's own hard drive is the ultimate backup, but if the post house has no backup for a mission-critical dailies session, the mixer won't find out about it until much later on, when people are screaming. The good news is: I think traditional dailies are going away, and the reality is that as production shifts to digital cameras, dailies start happening earlier -- not having to wait for film development. If the assistant editor is already syncing up the dailies for the morning's shoot, and doing it before 6PM, getting a replacement disk over to editorial is very easy. I also suspect more and more editors will request a small hard drive instead of a DVD, simply because it loads much faster than a DVD.

I think in the last 10 years, we only needed a backup disk maybe two dozen times on my post sessions (tops). Given that we're talking about many thousands of sessions, I'd say that's less than a 2% failure. We've had camera problems far more often than that.

--Marc W.

[Guest BobD]

Yes Jeff, running two machines..  as I said, for a push of a button I have created another possibly useful disc, and one from a completely different source. Total safety... 

I have only once burned a funky disc that could not be figured out... Not catastrophic, but not good...  It was the one time I did not run two machines...  story of my life

Jeff Wexler..  " Now, if one of your devices is a computer (BoomRecorder, Metacorder) this double burn should not be so difficult to accomplish, but it will still take time at the end of the day."

  I would only add that even if your second machine is not a computer, or even if it is, this only takes a few minutes, and depending on how you structure your wrap, has never really been an issue...  I would say, just start the wrap backwards, get everything put away calmly and nicely while the burn happens, then wrap that up and go home. Time management.. Sometimes the sparks want to kill all the power, and your stuck there in the dark on location, but that's what good flashlights and Honda 1000s are for... If your an AC guy...  (like me). Or,  if not, you just need light and a few minutes..... Might even make a buck or two if your on OT!!

This situation illustrates the only hindrance to the new Tascam machines (or other card only recorders) as I see them now, besides the easy to fix 5 sec pre roll, (which is not really an issue). No real time DVD ram burn... I am sure they will offer up a Burner option. Or, Flash cards will finally cost the same as blank discs!!!!!