Minimalizing wind hits

[redge]

I did a one-hour outdoor interview in which there are occasional periods of 2 or 3 seconds of low-volume wind hits on the microphone, a Schoeps CMC641 in a Rycote windshield and windjammer.

I've found that equalization will minimize them to the point that they are unnoticeable unless you are listening for them, but is there an argument that it would be better to eliminate the frequencies?

Curious to know what the general practice is.

Thanks and cheers.

[Philip Perkins]

I did a one-hour outdoor interview in which there are occasional periods of 2 or 3 seconds of low-volume wind hits on the microphone, a Schoeps CMC641 in a Rycote windshield and windjammer.

I've found that equalization will minimize them to the point that they are unnoticeable unless you are listening for them, but is there an argument that it would be better to eliminate the frequencies?

Curious to know what the general practice is.

Thanks and cheers.

2nd layer on Rycote (sock) under the Dog?  Foam windscreen on mic inside Rycote?  Then some low rolloff, but don't make them sound like Mickey Mouse--let post decide how much farther to take the rolloff.  In a post mix I will often do spot EQ on wind hits to avoid cutting lows thru a whole scene, esp w/ male voices.

Philip Perkins

[Guest JPorter]

My CMC4-Mk41 setup in a Lightwave zepp/furry (foam on mic as well)  has never let any wind through.  Maybe you are dealing with higher winds.  I have also been using a 416 in a Rycote Softie for a couple of days outside and I was unimpressed with the amount of wind getting through.  I am not sure how high the winds were, but it was a struggle holding the mic steady when the gusts picked up.

Low-cut was set at 80hz on my SD 302.

[tim apter]

I really love the softies, but in anything higher than a moderate breeze they dont do very well - thats total zep territory. Anyone tried out the rycote smoothies yet?

[redge]

Maybe you are dealing with higher winds.

Yes, I was on a fishing boat on the ocean. I'm actually quite happy with the sound except for a few places where the wind kicked up. As Philip says, spot equalization works fairly well if the hits are fairly low volume. Being new to this, if anyone has any tips or has had success with some other approach to managing the problem, I'd love to hear.

Cheers

[redge]

Any time you can effect change prior to the amplifier it's a good thing.

Yes, but meanwhile I have the material that I have. I posted this question because I am interested in learning about approaches to fixing problems in post, which in this case is about low volume wind hits and on some other occasion might well be about cable noise. Learning that will tell me something about how much room I have when recording under uncontrolled conditions, which given the kind of recording that I am doing, is a good thing.

Thanks very much.

[Ron Lacheur]

Redrawing the waveform permanently alters the original file, so if you have to resort to that, Duplicate the file ( or region ) first.

The Waves plugins, specifically for NR is part of Waves' Restoration package. They are pretty effective to a point. If used to the extreme, you can hear the artifacts clear as day.

Ron

[redge]

RVD and Ron,

This is really helpful. I understand what you are saying on a gut level, but I need to spend some time absorbing and thinking about your comments, and doing a bit of research.

I am obliged to both of you, and I am grateful (indeed surprised) that someone would call a colleague and pass on the benefit of the discussion.

I think that I will be at Rockport, Maine for a week-long production sound workshop in October. I have been playing around with the idea that I might do daily posts on what I am learning, but wondered whether people would find it worth reading. I think that if you guys are prepared to take the time to respond to my questions, maybe I should do a few reports on this workshop for the benefit of those of us who are perhaps less experienced.

Thanks again,

Rory

[tim apter]

Rich -

I really appreciate the effort you take in posting your experiences and knowledge here. Even more impressive to a relatively small time South African filmmaker such as myself is that I've SEEN your work, and know that when you say something, its certainly worth my attention. It always give me a kick when I watch an American film and can say to the person I'm watching it with - "I got the opportunity to correspond with the guy who mixed the production tracks on this".

thanks again for the excellent posts you frequently put up on this board.

Regards,

Tim Apter

[Noah Timan]

Redge, you didn't mention if you are using the Schoeps Cut 1 inline filter.  The benifit of this piece of equipment is that it filters low frequencies before the amplifier. 

I may be wrong, but I'm not sure that wind is the kind of thing where it makes much difference whether the rolloff happens before or after the amplifier.

Personally, I use a different mic in exterior applications, but many use the Schoeps.  When I do use the Schoeps in any situation where low frequencies might attack the mic, I'll use the Cut 1 and set it to a median position.

At a range of 70 to 700 Hz on the Cut 1, a median position (from there about 300-400 Hz) is some pretty steep rolloff.  You'll get rid of the noise, but you may be subtracting a significant part of the actor's voice that can't be put back later.  My instinct is generally is that if a noise is above 150 Hz max, I let post deal with it, since they can isolate the offending frequencies more accurately with notch filters and the like, rather than just wipe out everything below a certain frequency.

[tim apter]

Rich,

I'll be sure to let you know what my thoughts are when I turn the volume up next time..

Regards,

Tim

[Simon Paine]

Of course another one of my favorite quotes comes from Confucious, and that is "It is better to be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

I hope I haven't removed all doubt.

In the giving credit where credit is due department:

That quote you mention is actually an Abraham Lincoln quote. He originaly said : "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. "

Honest Abe was actualy quite a quotable guy: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/abraham_lincoln.html

We now return to your regularly scheduled "minimizing wind hits" thread.

[larry long]

Rich,

at least you don't post after a bunch of white russians!

LL

[John Blankenship]

I agree with Noah about use of the CUT1.  The high pass in it is a 24dB/octave filter at about 70Hz whereas the rolloff (the rotatable dial) is a 6dB/octave roll-off.  I always put the dial on the lowest setting (least roll-off) which means the filter only chops off the lower frequencies (where there is very little useful dialogue) with a nice, steep filter.  Dialing in the roll-off affects the signal too far into the frequency spectrum IMHO.  Such arbitrary tweeking is best left for post.

I disagree with Noarh when he said "...I'm not sure that wind is the kind of thing where it makes much difference whether the rolloff happens before or after the amplifier." 

Low frequencies can overload an amplifier very quickly and the extreme excursions the capsule makes in wind generate huge level variations.  That's just the place where it's really needed to keep those huge variations from overloading the amplifier.

John B., CAS

Indy

[Noah Timan]

I disagree with Noarh when he said "...I'm not sure that wind is the kind of thing where it makes much difference whether the rolloff happens before or after the amplifier." 

Low frequencies can overload an amplifier very quickly and the extreme excursions the capsule makes in wind generate huge level variations.  That's just the place where it's really needed to keep those huge variations from overloading the amplifier.

You may be right, John.  That's why I disclaimed my original statement with "I may be wrong, but..."  The fact of the matter is that here in noisy New York City, my opportunities to use the Schoeps (or any hyper) outside are few and far between.  (I did do the bulk of my last movie's exteriors, set in quiet farmland upstate, with the Schoeps -- what a pleasure it was to re-experience how wonderful that mic can be outside when there's not noise flooding in from every direction!)  Furthermore, I can't remember any recent experience where we were not able to temper wind hits by dressing the mic appropriately (in some combination of pop screens, zeppelins, wind socks, wind jammers, and in extremely rare cases, all of the above) as opposed to dialing out frequencies.  So that comment was more of a theoretical supposition than one from day to day experience, and if folks at home are unable to temper their wind problems by suitably dressing the microphone and need to go to the Cut 1, they should probably heed your words instead of mine.

[John Blankenship]

...Furthermore, I can't remember any recent experience where we were not able to temper wind hits by dressing the mic appropriately (in some combination of pop screens, zeppelins, wind socks, wind jammers, and in extremely rare cases, all of the above) as opposed to dialing out frequencies.  So that comment was more of a theoretical supposition than one from day to day experience, and if folks at home are unable to temper their wind problems by suitably dressing the microphone and need to go to the Cut 1, they should probably heed your words instead of mine.

Agreed.  A mic should be properly dressed before appearing in public.  In general practice, I find that one of the primary reasons for using the CUT1 is that it reduces boom handling noise pretty effectively.

John B.

[Eric Burge]

Agreed.  A mic should be properly dressed before appearing in public.  In general practice, I find that one of the primary reasons for using the CUT1 is that it reduces boom handling noise pretty effectively.

John B.

Also agree on the handling noise issue, but for wind hits alone I've had excellent results using the long-haired Sennheiser socks on a variety of zeps with both cmc and mkh series mics. Makes since to me, if you don't trash them in the washer (esperience speaking...more fragile than others...especially to heat!) the longer hairs gently redirect a lot of wind energy. No undersock required. I've used them in really strong winds and if you start hearing rumble, the talent's hair is blowing sideways and clothes flapping anyway and can be minimized with a little roll-off. Close-by foilage on the other hand can cause big probelms.

EB

[t.elder]

I agree that it is best to use the CUT-1 on the Schoeps for the reasons that have been mentioned above - my one caveat is that a rolloff filter on the mixer should work almost as well, providing that you aren't getting hits that are overmodulating the signal.  Still, it's always better to get it on the mic.

There was a time (in my experience) when the wind (on a beach) overwhelmed a Neumann KMR81i in a Rycote Zeppelin, with the foam windscreen, a windsock, and the windjammer in place.  Perhaps this has something to do with the increased low frequency response of that microphone as well. 

As for the waves restoration plug-in and / or redrawing the waveform, forget about it - that's not going to work for extended wind hits, period.  I'm not saying that the audio can't be cleaned up in post and that parametric equalizers and restoration plug-ins can't work - they can work wonders, but not they're not miracle workers.

Tim