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Backup recorders


Whit Norris

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Hey everyone,

I'm taking a survey and input on what everyone is using for a backup. I am recording with a Deva V and recorded with a  Deva II for five years. Using a PD 4 or an HHB as a backup. I currently use my last PD 4 as a backup. (I sold my Deva II).

What does everyone like? I have considered 744 or Boom Recorder. Any thoughts? I want to leave DAT behind!!!

Thanks

Whit Norris

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Hey everyone,

I'm taking a survey and input on what everyone is using for a backup.

Whit Norris

I used Nagra to backup DAT, then DAT to backup DAT, then DAT to backup Deva, and then for a brief time with the new Deva IV I used my "old" Deva II as backup. I have now done several movies with the Deva IV and of course it has proven to be 100% reliable (for me) in terms of recording sound. So, I now do not run a backup per se on the jobs I am working on. By way of clarification, I do have my 744T on the cart most of the time, and I did record with it in parallel with the Deva a few jobs back. The other thing I have, on almost all the jobs I have done, is top flight video assist people with usually hard drive based systems (typically at 48K, 16-bit). I always make sure I have a good signal going to video assist (almost always hard wired) and I check it often. It is highly unlikely that the Deva AND the video assist recorder would fail in the middle of a take and so the video assist track could certainly be used if necessary. Every "failure" type problem that I have ever had while using either the Deva II or the Deva IV, has always been with a delivery disk, an operator error or a failure of procedures in daily transfer routines --- none of the failures have ever been lost audio on the Deva.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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There are two interesting pieces in Gotham Sound's latest newsletter, sent out in the last day or two:

An article about how many people are still using file-based recorders as backup, because post houses still have a problem with them.

Announcement of a seminar on Oct. 28, assuming sufficient interest, about non-linear post-production.

The newletter also talks about a new slate system, developed with Metacorder in mind.

Cheers.

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The best bang for buck backup system is probably Boom Recorder with a cheap MOTU interface, esp if you already have a Mac laptop or Mini.  (Lots of cheap G4 laptops around now.)  Very versitile, more tracks than you'll probably need.  If you want something cheap, smaller, simpler and 2 tracks the Tascam P2 is quite good.  I'm also looking forward to seeing the Zaxcom ZFR recorders as well.  Many people are using the 744 as a primary recorder, so it would certainly be good enough for a backup machine.

Philip Perkins

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I retired my Nagra V TC backup to the DEVA II at the end of last season and now use the DEVA II as backup for the DEVA V. I miss my Nagra if only because of its legendary reliability and the memories it brings back of withstanding abuse that I wouldn't put any hard disk recorder through. I don't subscribe to the analogue is better theory having appreciated digital sound for a while (although I never liked DAT, ever) but I have appreciated its place in audio history and remember with fondness my 1/2 inch Otari that I used to record jingles on back in my music days.

Anyway, backup is used quite a bit on CSI for a variety of reasons although we're not far enough into the new season to tell whether that is still the case now that we have two DEVAs.

Great job on the site Jeff.

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hey all... I never backed up my good old nagras. I backed up my hhb dat machine for about 4/6 months when I 1st got it. I backed up my deva 4 with the hhb for 6 or so months, but not any more, for almost a year and a half?? I have only run my deva and I mirror to dvd ram as I go. No problems with the recorder in all sorts of enviroments and conditions. So far, so good. I of course still carry dat recorders as back up, and I use pro tools for playback, or I could run it as a back up if I had to or had some other reason. I try to keep it simple.

Max Respect, Old School

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Im way (waaaaaay) further down the food chain than you guys, and not in the league of using backup recorders, but am very curious - how often have you guys had a failure that made you happy the backup was running? I can understand backing up DAT, but it seems like DEVA with a mirror is pretty much a foolproof system? Sorry if this is a bit of a amateur question, but Im curious if its really something thats worth the money that backup costs?

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Thr mirror system attatched to a DEVA is not backup. If the DEVA fails the DVD fails. Backup should be an entirely separate and independent system that will capture the same audio as the primary recorder, ie. DAT to DEVA, etc My two DEVA systems are entirely independent of each other and mirror to separate and different DVDs.

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Over the last two years I have used the Fostex PD-6 in many situations ENG in the bag to film set ups. I figure I have used it over 300 hours in the field. I only had that unit fail on me once. When recording 6 tracks with it in the ENG bag outdoors in July here in GA. It overheated and just shut down after removing it from the bag and using a fan on it for a few min it was fine. I learned after that day not to leave it in the case and make sure it was always in the shade when not being used and haven't had a problem since. I always carry a Tascam-P2 recorder with me just in case though. I think my cleints are just more comfortable when I tell them "Yes I have a back up recorder with me incase anything happens" and because of the local film school where I live I have rented the Tascam out quite often and it has acutally been a good source of alittle extra money so I am considering buying a second one to rent as well.

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I can understand backing up DAT, but it seems like DEVA with a mirror is pretty much a foolproof system? Sorry if this is a bit of a amateur question, but Im curious if its really something thats worth the money that backup costs?

For me, the back up is to protect the master track as well as offer a second disk for the telecine operator in case of failure.  The telecine sessions are usually in the middle of the night, and with a back up disk they can continue the session without difficulty.  I haven't had any problems with my master recorder, but the comfort level of having another recorder is worth it to me.

I currently use a Sound Devices 702T to back up my DEVA V.  Until Sound Devices gets the mirror funtion going, I am burning a DVD from the CF using a DVD Burnaway.  I run disks from both machines through telecine before production begins for readability and TC accuracy.  So far, so good.

PWP

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DEVAs can fail just like anything else, even a Rolls Royce. That's why you keep a mini in the trunk. Murphy is alive and well in the film/TV biz so take all necessary and affordable precautions. Keep asking questions Tim, the guys here are all generous with their expertise as you can tell.

Good luck

Mick

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Thanks Mick and everyone else for the answers... Phil, your answer was something I hadnt realised (disk read problems), and thats a bit more of a validation than "in case it goes down during a take". I guess its lots of small conveniences that make the backup worth it.

I suspect that maybe Im only asking this question because to me a 744t is a large investment, but next to a Deva for you guys its just a backup recorder (albeit still valuable)...

Thanks for putting up with a naive query from a young ENG guy who would love to do bigger narrative shows some day :)

Tim

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Thanks everyone for the input. I still remember when I had one recorder on the cart. My Nagra. I still keep my IV STC with me on the truck for good luck even though I have not used it in years execpt as a prop on one film.

As far as the Deva being reliable. I have never had an issue with II or V. Even though I have always ran a back-up, it has never been used. Oh no I hope I did not just jinx myself on the current movie I on!

Great discussion everyone! Jeff thanks for the great site!

Whit Norris

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I have a lot of faith in my gear, I don't have as much faith in my ability to operate the gear perfectly all the time.  That's why I roll backups.  To me a 2nd drive in a recorder is not a backup--or at least not one that would help me much.  It's so easy to run the dailies mix or pair onto another machine now I just can't think of an excuse not to.  The backup doesn't have to have TC, although it would be nice--the audio is really what's needed.  I figure that I might screw up or fail to roll one machine, but probably not two (at the same time).

Philip Perkins

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I agree completly with Phillip that one of the good reasons to run a real backup is to cover for operator error or procedural errors rather than the typical machine errors we often think of. I also agree that a secondary media generated by the same machine should not be considered a true backup. I really taker exception to people who refer to their DVD's as backup, or the internal hard drive as backup and so forth. These things ARE backups (or multiple copies) only after it is determined that both recordings are good (and hence no "backup" required). 

I had many discussion with people early on when we started doing backups for DAT (and in those cases we often needed the backup because of the very real machine/media failures we all experienced at some time or another). Other mixers would ask me why I didn't keep an "all digital path" by taking the digital output of the primary DAT machine to feed the backup recorder. The obvious answer, why I did not do this, is that it wouldn't be a backup if I did that. Why would anyone consider feeding the signal into the machine that you expect may fail and relying on that signal reaching the backup or secondary recorder. So, all of my backup routines were parallel systems --- my analog Cooper board would feed an identical signal to any and all recorders in use --- this is the only truly bonafide backup in my way of thinking.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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I agree completly with Phillip that one of the good reasons to run a real backup is to cover for operator error or procedural errors rather than the typical machine errors we often think of. I also agree that a secondary media generated by the same machine should not be considered a true backup. I really taker exception to people who refer to their DVD's as backup, or the internal hard drive as backup and so forth. These things ARE backups (or multiple copies) only after it is determined that both recordings are good (and hence no "backup" required). 

I had many discussion with people early on when we started doing backups for DAT (and in those cases we often needed the backup because of the very real machine/media failures we all experienced at some time or another). Other mixers would ask me why I didn't keep an "all digital path" by taking the digital output of the primary DAT machine to feed the backup recorder. The obvious answer, why I did not do this, is that it wouldn't be a backup if I did that. Why would anyone consider feeding the signal into the machine that you expect may fail and relying on that signal reaching the backup or secondary recorder. So, all of my backup routines were parallel systems --- my analog Cooper board would feed an identical signal to any and all recorders in use --- this is the only truly bonafide backup in my way of thinking.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

\

I did the 2 DAT machine via SPDIF thing for awhile, my HHB to a Sony D8 or M1, and then realized what JW said, that that was not only not a real back up but (in my case) more frought w/ potential problems than running two analog feeds to the decks individually.  I should also add that another good reason for running two DATs back in the day was that post and telecine would sometimes lose or break the DATs, or the DAT itself would fail.  All it took was for the holdback spring inside the cassette to fail or come loose and then the tape could not be slewed properly in a telecine transfer.  Several times I had to make field transfers from  damaged and repaired DAT tapes (spliced, unwrinkled, reassembled in a new cassette) to either a new DAT or to my TC Nagra as straight start-to-finish dubs, since w/o the internal mechanical guts a DAT cassette can only run @ play speed, the deck won't be able to fast wind it or locate to a TC address at all.

Philip Perkins

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi all. I do not use a second device this days just data redundancy with my Deva V.

But one of the disks failed while shooting and in a very "protective" way: it refused to record next take (to avoid further dissasters)

I simply changed the disk (caddy) as fast as I could and say "sound ready!"

Then trashed that disk and replaced it, of course. All files inside were OK.

Now I'd like to have a second recorder (maybe a 702T or at least my R-09 with a 302) just in case.

I'm not "too" affraid of a Deva failure but the Deva itself might be broken by accident or whatever...

Also, a second recorder can be very handy to perform parallel recordings or risky ones.

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  • 6 months later...

Today I have been thinking about the whole backup thing again. I know we have talked about this at great length in the past. What prompted me to think about this again was my testing of the Edirol R-09 as a suitable backup recorder. While hooking up the R-09, for the first time my SD 744T had a problem --- the MENU key refused to operate. I have sent it in for the SD upgrade and I'm sure they will fix it.

Well, the R-09 worked just fine as an audio backup but I thought again why do I need a backup? I have been doing file based recording now for over 10 years, with the original Deva I, then the Deva II and now the Deva IV, and I have not yet had any failure --- certainly not a failure that could have been helped by having a concurrent backup.

As I said before, I used to do a backup to back up the facility doing the transfers --- they may have done the dailies perfectly for weeks and suddenly they had someone in on the night shift who didn't know what to do with a DVD-RAM disk (and in these case, the DAT served as a backup to THEIR failure, not mine or the Deva). I don't worry about that anymore because any facility worth anything these days have gotten totally used to optical disks being turned in. So, if they screw up it's their screw up not mine.

The only failure I can even imagine that would be helped by a concurrent backup would be a failure that happens right in the middle a take (similar to a camera jam with film) and the jobs that I am working on would almost always allow for another take. In the very worst of circumstances, as long as I have insured that my feed to the video assist cart is good, almost all those recordings are at the very least, 16-bit, 48K. That sound could always be useed for that one take that went bad.

My procedure now, as of today, is not to run a backup to my Deva.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Today I have been thinking about the whole backup thing again. I know we have talked about this at great length in the past. What prompted me to think about this again was my testing of the Edirol R-09 as a suitable backup recorder. While hooking up the R-09, for the first time my SD 744T had a problem --- the MENU key refused to operate. I have sent it in for the SD upgrade and I'm sure they will fix it.

Well, the R-09 worked just fine as an audio backup but I thought again why do I need a backup? I have been doing file based recording now for over 10 years, with the original Deva I, then the Deva II and now the Deva IV, and I have not yet had any failure --- certainly not a failure that could have been helped by having a concurrent backup.

As I said before, I used to do a backup to back up the facility doing the transfers --- they may have done the dailies perfectly for weeks and suddenly they had someone in on the night shift who didn't know what to do with a DVD-RAM disk (and in these case, the DAT served as a backup to THEIR failure, not mine or the Deva). I don't worry about that anymore because any facility worth anything these days have gotten totally used to optical disks being turned in. So, if they screw up it's their screw up not mine.

The only failure I can even imagine that would be helped by a concurrent backup would be a failure that happens right in the middle a take (similar to a camera jam with film) and the jobs that I am working on would almost always allow for another take. In the very worst of circumstances, as long as I have insured that my feed to the video assist cart is good, almost all those recordings are at the very least, 16-bit, 48K. That sound could always be useed for that one take that went bad.

My procedure now, as of today, is not to run a backup to my Deva.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

I understand your position on this, and like you never ran a backup for my Nagras, and didn't think to run backup for my DATs at first either (until...).  I guess the thing I think about NL recorders, being specialized computers, is that like computers they are fine until they're not, and then they are REALLY not fine. It's worth it to me to go to the trouble to backup record for the peace of mind I get and the possibility of covering someone else's butt in addition to mine in the process, perhaps saving the production a lot of trouble.  I like being a hero, you see.  The backup has been a good idea enough times that I think I'll keep at it for now.  (I had the 702T+DVDRAM combo hork once mid-take on an infomercial with LONG takes--the backup recorder (HDP2) saved that piece of that take where I had to restart recording on the 702.  On a more lowbudg video shoot I had a HVX camera's P2 card either not record or not transfer a crucial little piece of VO by the central character of a project--one take only as he was leaving.  What is heard in that film for that VO bite is from my iRiver H120 backup recorder.  These are two examples from the last 3 months.)  Keep in mind that a lot of my work involves sending audio to various video cameras, which is a way more flaky and failure prone (not to mention low-fi) situation than Jeff's mixer plugged straight into his Deva on his cart--hence the backup.

Philip Perkins

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Ok, sorry my bad, its simply a duplicate; not a failsafe. Have you ever had the DEVA fail on you Mick?

Not the Deva but one of the internal disks. I changed and continued recording.

By refusing to record on that disk it protected the data that was already inside.

I assume the Cantar and the 7 series have similar safety mechanisms to protect data from being corrupted or erased.

The Deva originally wrote to disk in a linear fashion so one could get all data out of the disk in case of failure.

But a complete independent backup is advisable. Lighting truck going back on a dark set...

(eemm, sorry, I answered already last september! =:s )

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At the risk of sounding redundant I feel compelled to advocate for the use of backup machines, having had the rare and unwelcome failure of a mixing board recently. Devas are certainly reliable and perform well under many adverse conditions, but they're not perfect. You only have to have one failure out in the field to emphasize the need for a secondary system to which post can turn in the advent of some sort of error. The only failure I've encountered so far in the recording chain is that of corrupted DVD ram discs, but I archive my material for long enough so that if post has a problem two months from now and needs me to burn a new DVD then I have that capability. For me, IMHO, backing up my primary system (Deva V) with a secondary one (Deva II) is an essential part of my work ethic. I don't have any disrespect for those that don't back up their work, I just find that my piece of mind is ensured by this approach.

Regards

Mick

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Hey all, greetings. In all of 2006 I only recorded to my deva 4 with no back up, in all conditions known to production sound mixers. The only problem I ever had was not hitting the big red record button a time or two. Wonderful machine IMHO. At the end of 06 I bought a SD744T as a back up in case of a melt down or whatever to my main recorder. I would fear returning to my old HHB's for all reasons. In the first 50 some shoot days of 2007, I've been recording to my Deva 4 and 744 recorders at the same time. I've been doing this to learn and feel comfortable with the 744T and not for back up per se. I like the 744 and it makes a fine recording. I can't hear a difference when I play back files from both units in my home studio. I should say that the recorders always had my Cooper in front of them. Regardless, I must say that I enjoy a certain fail/safe comfort feeling by hitting two buttons on both sides of a recording. Much harder to screw up. I have been thinking of leaving it this way if for no other reason than I'll never wear this sucker out before we move on down the road. My biggest complaint of the 744 is entering metadata or navigating the menu. It's not hard, but it's not fast either.  In the commercial world I live in, slating, and metadata change at warp speed and often. After a year and whatever of using the Deva I would find it very hard to downsize to the 744 as my main unit and do the job the same as I do now, but as a back up, or bag or special unit I like it a lot. I did a job last month where we had a film and HD cam on the same scene and I needed them both. Good tools and a good team = good sound most of the time. Peace n Love.

CrewC

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