Rental Rates

[Arnold F.]

I am in consideration for a gig that would be my first where I receive an equipment rental fee.  How does one determine rental rates and what do I charge for?  Just major components like the mixer, recorder and wireless systems (and ifb?) or for even for things like the boom, each mic and lav,  headphones, etc?  Do I base the fees on the rates of my local rental house? 

A.

[old school]

Greetings. Check out your market rates, Kansas City is not the same as L.A./N.Y. as far as $ per day rates. 1 rate for basic prod. package. Ala cart after that is the norm. Good luck.

O.S.

[Arnold F.]

By market rates you mean what my local rental house charges?  What does a basic production package consist of? 

A.

[jason porter]

You should try to charge a similar rate as others in your region. (with similar packages)

[Eric Toline]

By market rates you mean what my local rental house charges?  What does a basic production package consist of? 

A.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

For film or video? Sit down interview or ENG? A basic video package would be mixer, boom mic & 2 wireless for $150 a day. Extra wireless are $75 a day each. A backup recorder like an SD 7 series for video is $150 per day if it's requested.

Eric

[Arnold F.]

Eric:

The job is a NY indie feature and my kit consists of: Fostex FR-2, SD442, Schoeps MK41, Oktava MK012, (2) Sennheiser G2 's, (1) Lectro 2xx, (1) Lectro 4xx, 14' boom.  I wouldn't be surprised if the job also required my having some combination of the following: SD744, a Comtek with one or two receivers and a timecode slate (none of which I currently own).

A.

[soundwiz]

Eric,

How much should be the minimum  charges for a sound mixer  be for a day for ENG/EFP?

regards

Harry

[Eric Toline]

Eric,

How much should be the minimum  charges for a sound mixer  be for a day for ENG/EFP?

regards

Harry

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

With a basic package, $450.

Eric

 

[Arnold F.]

What does a basic package consist of and what does one charge for that?

A.

[Eric Toline]

What does a basic package consist of and what does one charge for that?

A.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Are you retarded? Read the replys, try #4.

Eric

[Michael P Clark]

In ATL, we have been trying to get $450/10hr day rate, $200 for gear(442, 2 Rx/Tx, Boom, and everything and anything to make your gear work with ANY camera or senerio). Add ons(slates, headset feeds, xtra Rx/Tx, etc) = $$. I have been getting alot of calls lately from Cable TV Production companys, and they seem to feel $400 for EVERYTHING is the deal. But will fly out the director/producer, put them up in a Very Nice hotel, and pay their Full Rate. I always say no, but someone is always willing to give their gear for free. Drives me nuts. With that quality of gear you have, I am surprised this is the first time you've been able to charge for gear. Good luck, and ALWAYS start out with a full rate. If you're desperate enough, negotiate the rate to help YOU, especially if it's a first time client. Justify your cost with your quality of work, and they'll come back. If we all say NO, to those deals, will they eventually bump up their budget, to include quality sound people??? Probably not, because someone will be there to do it cheaper. I say let them, and keep the well paying gigs for ourselves. my 2cents!

[Arnold F.]

Eric, not sure what to say - that seems so unlike you both here on the boards and in our own e-mails.  When you read over the posts you can easily see why I would think you were responding to the other poster: a) it came directly after a post from that other person, it didn't relate to my post and, c) it SOUNDED like a response to their short post, not like a response to my longer post  I think the most charitable thing for me to assume is that you were very busy and didn't have time to read the posts, AND were having a day bad enough to make you do the most gauche thing you can do in a civilized, adult forum like Jeff runs! ; )

[Arnold F.]

Michael, many thanks for the reply.  Would a recorder be considered an add-on down there?

I'm afraid that in this case the scenario is, between the two you describe, more like the latter than the former, but they are saying they will pay rental so I'll do my best (hence the questions!).

A.

[tim apter]

Here in SA, with any kind of video based rig, recording straight to camera without backup is the norm. The availability and pricing of audio production equipment does not lend itself to the luxuries you very lucky first worlders are accustomed to!

Any kind of backup recorder system if offered or requested is most definately an extra charge, and if Im not mistaken, this is by and large the case worldwide.

Arnold, round here a "basic" package would be a three channel mixer minimum, two wireless units, a boom and boom mounted mic (here in SA this is usually a shotgun ONLY, but Ive never heard of a seperate charge for a hyper), and usually a handhled mic (such as RE50) if the job requires it. Headphones are obviously there too. In addition, its expected that a sound man carry enough adaptors and connectors to handle pretty much any "normal" sort of interfacing that a job may require.

Extra wireless is an additional charge. More channels on a mixer, if needed, is SOMETIMES an extra (more than 4 is definately extra). Any kind of IFB is extra (though, IFB is not at all common here on low to mid level shoot, so I often provide in the interest of getting directors hooked and sparking a new level of awareness of sound quality control). Cable lav's are sometimes charged as extra, but that can be a double edged sword as the producers will often turn and say "well then I expect you to knock off the wireless rentals if we are using cable.".. that statement is usually followed by "cant you just make do with cable next time too?"

[Michael P Clark]

 Would a recorder be considered an add-on down there?

Can't comment on ALL recorders, but typically $100/day!

[Eric Toline]

Eric, not sure what to say - that seems so unlike you both here on the boards and in our own e-mails.  When you read over the posts you can easily see why I would think you were responding to the other poster: a) it came directly after a post from that other person, it didn't relate to my post and, c) it SOUNDED like a response to their short post, not like a response to my longer post  I think the most charitable thing for me to assume is that you were very busy and didn't have time to read the posts, AND were having a day bad enough to make you do the most gauche thing you can do in a civilized, adult forum like Jeff runs! ; )

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I don't know why you would think I was answering someone else. In my reply to you (#9) I quoted your question which I answered in reply #4 and you asked the same question again in your post (#. In short you asked a question, I answered it, then you asked the same question again after I answered it.

Perhaps I didn't cut you enough slack but as for being "gauche" I really don't think

so. BTW does anyone really say "gauche" anymore?

Eric

[Jeff Wexler]

...AND were having a day bad enough to make you do the most gauche thing you can do in a civilized, adult forum like Jeff runs!

I'm running an ADULT FORUM? So, where are the girls? Oh, we already had that thread, sorry. All kiding aside, any confusion here I think relates merely to the way in which we communicate here (which I personally still don't really like) where comments do not necessarily follow posts properly and things which would be trivial or unnoticed in face to face communications just get out of hand.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Arnold F.]

Thanks, Jeff.  Clearly there was a misunderstanding of some kind and I'll happily apologize if it was my fault.  However, if membership here allows me to call other posters names (for ANY reason), I can promise you that's a privilege I'll never avail myself of.  I'm here to learn (and, hopefully, contribute) and folks like Eric (and particularly Eric) have been a terrific help to me, for which I'm grateful.

I was a bit disappointed by the response to my original post and think perhaps asking what other folks charge may not have been the best way to approach the question.  I think what I really need help with is determining what, generally speaking (because I know there will be differing opinions), what an independent feaure kit might be comprised of and what constitutes other, rentable add-ons.  For instance, would a producer expect comteks and a timecode slate to be part of a basic package, etc.  I've had one poster respond via private message who was also really helpful.

A.

[Arnold F.]

..and, yes, I like to keep old words like gauche, vexing, and swell alive.  It's a complete reversal from my valley upbringing.

A.

[Eric Burge]

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Are you retarded? Read the replys, try #4.

Eric

Eric, shame... Are there any producer forums out there by which to judge our own IQs? I'm sure we're collectively rocket by comparison.

Regarding the original post, I do my best to avoid the local market in lieu of the national market when considering rates. One advantage of living up here in the northern Rockies is there is no big local market per, but then there's not that much work either. The few of us in the region that do sound for a living travel for most of our bread and butter and work together on the local scene doing our best to hold the bar at national standards, i.e. $450-550 including EFP kit. The cost of flying in and housing an outside mixer exceeds that. Of course there are most always negotiations and I usually try to add gear rather than cut my price if it comes down to it. There will always be work lost to low-ballers, but usually their kits lack depth and quality for much of anything worth doing. F$%K 'em. Productions get what they pay for in the end.

I NEVER will commit to a low-budget job far in advance explaining to the producer that I simply can't afford to lock a discount deal and then have to turn down a job op over the same time frame where "fair" compensation is offered. I also don't double book like some others I know and then throw the smaller bone to someone else. Personally I have an ethical issue with that. OTOH, short notice low-pay gigs for established friends sometimes come up and that will always be the case, but I see it as the cost of networking and staying in the loop, which leads to bigger budget jobs with the same folks.

As for line-item gear rental, I list everything on my invoice template priced at day-rates comparable to the usual houses. For an "inclusive" deal, which is common in non-fiction "edutainment" programming, I still individually mark off the basic components indicating N/C in the subtotal. That way the PM hopefully will realize the deal they're getting if they examine the line-item details, again which often leads to more work.

Other stuff gets shopped out at day-rate, 4-day weeks, 3 week months, etc. I also try and make sure we are clear prior to production as to the "max requirements" for the job. That way there is no misunderstanding as to the extra stuff the director or field producer may request once on site. Always good to bring spare/extra stuff. It's bumped my rate more than I can count.

As for a recorder, if it's requested I charge extra for it. For single-system jobs where it's not requested I'll often bring one anyway for backup and personal piece of mind, especially if wireless hops are involved. If they decide they want that audio I'll retro-charge for the rental plus transfer time. This "backup" recording has saved my butt before as if I can avoid signing a work-for-hire contract (which I always try to avoid) and I have a copy of all the audio as proof of my efforts, I can legally retain ownership to it in case the PM rakes me through the dirt or there are excessive delays with invoice payment. It has happened a small number of times, but only once where it got kind of ugly and I had to pull out the copyright guns. OTOH, the situation was quickly resolved after they checked with thier legal department. I hate to be a dick, but sometimes you've got to think like a producer in order to survive in their arena...we are all in business afterall.

EB

[Eric Burge]

I'm running an ADULT FORUM? So, where are the girls? Oh, we already had that thread, sorry.

When, where, how do I join?

...and things which would be trivial or unnoticed in face to face communications just get out of hand.

Why all the sensativity to the written word? It is only archived in perpetuity for all the world to see. Should we now gather in a circle for a group hug?

XO

EB

[ptalsky]

On the subject of rental rates, how do you list what your "day" is on daily rental?  I've been listing it as a calendar day, but that doesn't really work if it is an overnight shoot.  Also, a little off topic for this thread, how do you calculate overtime?  I quote for a 10 hour day, and I'm non-union.  Fortunately this has never really been an issue for me, as the client has almost always stepped up and offered "fair" compensation for the overtime, but I'm worried about those "unfair" producers and PM's out there.

Thanks!

Phil

[Eric Toline]

[quote author=Arnold F.  

I think what I really need help with is determining what, generally speaking (because I know there will be differing opinions), what an independent feaure kit might be comprised of and what constitutes other, rentable add-ons.  For instance, would a producer expect comteks and a timecode slate to be part of a basic package, etc. 

A.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

ok, lets start over. For a film job where you're supplying a recorder, a tc slate is expected to be part of that package. So your rate for the recorder includes the slate. Figure about $150 per day for a DAT package and $175-$200 for a NLHD recorder package. Tapes/DVD's are extra, about $15-$20 each

The same job shot on video might not require an OB recorder but if they ask for a backup recorder the same rules apply. Comteks are optional but having a them available with you can't hurt.

You charge per receiver with a set of HP's and transmitter, usually around $15 a day each + batterys. Any wireless beyond 2 units are extra also.

The basic package varys depending if it's an ENG video shoot or a film shoot.

Eric

[Eric Toline]

On the subject of rental rates, how do you list what your "day" is on daily rental?  I've been listing it as a calendar day, but that doesn't really work if it is an overnight shoot.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sure it does, day rate is from call to wrap.

Also, a little off topic for this thread, how do you calculate overtime?  I quote for a 10 hour day, and I'm non-union.<<<<

OT is any time beyond the agreed to number of hours for a specific rate, i.e. $500/10 or 12 or whatever.

Fortunately this has never really been an issue for me, as the client has almost always stepped up and offered "fair" compensation for the overtime,

but I'm worried about those "unfair" producers and PM's out there.<<<<<<

Then you need to have a deal memo that spells out the rate for X number of hours and the rate for each hour beyond X.

Eric

Thanks!

Phil

[ptalsky]

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the reply.  I guess I wasn't entirely clear with my questions.

What I was really asking was, if my day rate is $400/10, how does everyone specifically calculate OT?  (I understand the principles of OT, just trying to understand what "industry norms" are).  So in this scenario, would it be appropriate to say hours 11 and 12 would be at $60 (1.5 x) per hour and 13+ be at $80 (2.0x)?

Thanks again!

Phil