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Thoughts on Mixing to Mono vs Mixing to Stereo


MT Groove

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It seems some of you mix to mono while some mix to stereo depending on circumstances.  In the event you're mixing to stereo, what are you putting on each channel?  On ENG gigs it seems boom on one channel and the wireless mix to the other is common. But what about on features/reality shows/talk shows?  What type of channel assignment practices are normal?  Let's discuss.

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I mix to one track or to two tracks at the pleasure of post. Rarely 'stereo'. Stereo tracks (mostly for ambient car passes and other things that move, or crowd noise that needs to be 'rich') are relegated to a pair of iso's unless it's a purely FX shot (no dialog), and post has asked me to mix to two tracks. In that case, I would put the stereo pair to tracks 1 and 2.

The answer to your question is really all about our interface with post IMHO; their workflow.

Dialog is -- for good or ill -- a mono event. That said, post has begun to pan dialog a bit (they talk about doing that in a bts "Toy Story" video somebody posted here recently), which totally makes sense to me, but for recording the mono event of dialog that 99.99% of the time (as of 7/10) is on the center track of the movie, one uses a mono recording approach. Have long wondered why theatrical mixers don't pan characters stage-left and stage-right as they move...

With the relative ponderously large size and predictability of the narrative feature or tv show, we are able to be more clever (plant mics), and sometimes get second and third chances to get it right. Our mix track(s) (these days, with the advent of multi-track recorders) is definitely for dailies, and hopefully makes it unretouched into the final product.

Don't know what anybody else does, but I'm preserving every mic I've got out to its own track. From what I understand, post is able to pull that word they need from those tracks, and they are delighted with that option. On a reality show, it's my guess that with so many people talking, and so much footage, such a practice would be overwhelming to post.

Track assignments are Mix to 1, Boom on 2, and the highest #'d characters' wires next. Boom 2 is nearly always on #4, just because. Sometimes for a scene with lots of dynamics, I'll route that input to a second track at -3 or -6 or -9dB. Used to run the backup machine with -XdB down. Were I recording the mix to two tracks, I'd record the second track @ -XdB for screaming scenes.

I've heard a rumor that post prefers us to be consistent with track assignments. I endeavor to get as close to consistent as possible, with character #1 always on track 3 if they're playing. Sometimes a failed mic, etc., etc., precludes consistency. Sometimes the complexity of the mix dictates another approach. Whatever. I give good notes :)

Curious how talk show folks do it.

Look forward to seeing others' answers.

Great topic, MT. I remember my brain all aflame when I moved to a two-track recorder. Whatever would I DO with 'em??? Ha.

-- Jan

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Don't know what anybody else does, but I'm preserving every mic I've got out to its own track. From what I understand, post is able to pull that word they need from those tracks, and they are delighted with that option. On a reality show, it's my guess that with so many people talking, and so much footage, such a practice would be overwhelming to post.

Actually, the majority of reality shows are requesting/using multitrack recorders, at least here in Sydney, Australia.

Regards

Peter Mega

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Actually, the majority of reality shows are requesting/using multitrack recorders, at least here in Sydney, Australia.

Regards

Peter Mega

Thanks for the information, Peter. Surprised. You have to take anything I say about reality shows with enormous grains of salt since I only did one, and that as an A2, wiring people. On that show, the mixers' two tracks were split boom/4 wires, two channels to camera, no recording by mixers at all, let alone iso tracks. That was 2 years ago. How fast times change!

Lord, please hear my prayer that I never have to do another.

Yes, this thread has brought me religion.

-- Jan

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Thanks for the information, Peter. Surprised. You have to take anything I say about reality shows with enormous grains of salt since I only did one, and that as an A2, wiring people. On that show, the mixers' two tracks were split boom/4 wires, two channels to camera, no recording by mixers at all, let alone iso tracks. That was 2 years ago. How fast times change!

Lord, please hear my prayer that I never have to do another.

Yes, this thread has brought me religion.

-- Jan

You're welcome Jan,

Reality shows aren't really that bad. They do have their moments though!! Multitracking reality shows has been pretty standard here for quite a few years now.

I have done a few without multitrack's and its a challenge, thats for sure. Booming one handed, mixing with the other is not easy.

To try and answer the original question (for reality shows) , iso tracks all the time on hard drive recorder and mix to camera tape via stereo wireless camera hop, usually split boom on one track and wires on the other. You wouldn't call this stereo though, maybe dual mono?

Cheers

Peter Mega

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You're welcome Jan,

Reality shows aren't really that bad. [snip]

Cheers

Peter Mega

I shan't type for public, archival reading why I think they ARE bad in my experience, but they ARE BAD in my experience. Oh, jeepers, I'm typing words in CAPS. Yeah. Strong feelings about it.

Happy to share via phone, though.

Maybe it's my old bones that make me feel that being a pack mule without a great lot of compensation -- if only for the sheer athleticism of it -- is not cool. Probably. And I probably feel that working as a mixer without equipment rental is not so much worth my time.

If it came down to working v. not working, and reality was my only option (which was exactly the case for my A2 stint, on the brink of the writers' strike), I'd be there with as much of a smile as I could muster. You betcha.

Multi-tracking everything always makes a lotta sense, to be sure. Why not? Time? Storage? Not so much.

-- Jan

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I only ever record mono.  The few times I have been asked to record boom/wires mix, I explained I was recording all the ISO tracks and I would send a mono mix to camera.  They were ok with that. 

I almost exclusively record narrative projects, and therefore don't see how the boom/wire mix sent to camera can be advantageous.  I think it's only an advantage when there is no boom operator or script to follow, and the decision to use the boom or the wires can't be made properly on the fly.

Robert

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Maybe it's my old bones that make me feel that being a pack mule without a great lot of compensation -- if only for the sheer athleticism of it -- is not cool. Probably. And I probably feel that working as a mixer without equipment rental is not so much worth my time.

-- Jan

Re pack mule: I will never carry more than 4 radio's, 744T, boom, mixer and cam hop, over the shoulder (not that thats not enough anyway!!).

If the requirements are more than that, then a cart type set up is required.

Our production companies here always hire enough soundies to cover the amount of contestants/talent with usually no more than 4 people per soundie.

We supply all the equipment so we get the rental and we stick to our rates.

Cheers

Mega

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therefore don't see how the boom/wire mix sent to camera can be advantageous.

Robert

Hi Robert,

I send a split because the boom and radios never mix together very well. Especially when mixing one handed and booming with the other!! So I can leave the boom's fader at a sweet spot and not have to worry about it too much, sending that to CH1 of the camera and mix the radio's to CH2. Most of my work is unscripted reality style so have to have the boom ready for anything.

Another scenario is, with my 552's direct outs, record 4 radio's to 744T and send boom to camera, so everything is iso'd.

Cheers

Mega

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Lot's of good info. here.  I guess in mixing to stereo I really mean dual mono as in what mic channels goes to what channel on the "Stereo" mix track. 

On anything that is multi-tracked, I just send camera a mono mix and all the mics recorded pre-fader on their individual tracks.  In the event there is boom and wireless being recorded exclusively to camera, I would send boom to ch 1 and mix of wireless to ch 2.  What I'm curious is in a situation such as a reality-type show, where there are 5 or 6 wireless going on.....and it's exclusively recorded to camera (not by choice).  What would you folks assign on the camera channels?  Do you assign them by character importance, or split them by position, split them by proximity so there's more "separation" in post?  Just curious to everyone's approach.

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" mixing to stereo, what are you putting on each channel?   "

Stereo (stereophonic) by definition means there is a spatial relationship to the channels, thus if it is 2 channels "stereo" is left side and right side.

For movies, the spatial relationships often depend on the editing of the images, so production sound mixers are usually multi-tracking, not mixing to stereo...

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" mixing to stereo, what are you putting on each channel?  "

Stereo (stereophonic) by definition means there is a spatial relationship to the channels, thus if it is 2 channels "stereo" is left side and right side.

For movies, the spatial relationships often depend on the editing of the images, so production sound mixers are usually multi-tracking, not mixing to stereo...

The term "Stereo Mix Track" has been used often among sound mixers.  We know it's not technically "stereo" per say.

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Not to answer for Jeff, but I would venture that he mixes 1 mic to one track 90% of the time. I do 80% of the time. The other 20 % of my work w whatever amount of mics is a 2 track mix that is the same mono tracks. I seldom get the call for iso multi track recording. Just lucky I suppose.

CrewC

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The term "Stereo Mix Track" has been used often among sound mixers.  We know it's not technically "stereo" per say.

That's as incorrect as it can get in our domain...

The ST MIX TRK is well applied to a multitrack music recording session. From a scratch mix, to the FINAL MIX to LR STereo... 

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Vin, I mix music as well, and do understand "Stereo" in the music world.  In fact I have worked as a Mastering engineer for years and have mastered hundreds of music releases on CD, so yes I know what stereo is. :)

I'm just trying to see what approach location sound mixers use when mixing to 2 tracks instead of 1 mono track.  I may be throwing the terms around wrong, so forgive me. 

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" The term "Stereo Mix Track" has been used often among sound mixers.  "

If that is true, and I don't believe that terminology is used very often, it is incorrect.

that sort of description could lead to others thinking that production sound is actually supplying stereophonic finished product, which is, I believe, rarely the case.  As JW has just mentioned in another thread, I, too, believe that correct terminology is important.

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MT, no apologies required. But as Senator MM says, it's really important to get fundamental terminology in place, otherwise the first point of external connect begins on an incorrect note... :)

I'd say this to the mixers who you have heard using the term "ST MIX TRKS" as well.

-vin

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To take the thread further...

If one was using 2 booms, then one has two sources to mix. TO ONE TRACK.

If one had one boom and maybe 2 wireless mics - then what? A two track mix?

If one had TWO booms and >2 wireless mics - then what? A two track mix? or a One track mix?

-vin

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[snip]

I seldom get the call for iso multi track recording. Just lucky I suppose.

CrewC

Interesting, Crew, while I've never been asked for iso's of mics, have always done so since the advent of the multi-track machine. How long has it been since I got the PD-6? A pretty long time. Well. There were a couple of times when -- running out of disc space with the 8cm discs -- I eliminated some iso tracks to make it to the end of the day without re-loading. But only if all the radio mics were sounding good and I was confident of my mix.

The way the little pictures I get are being shot these days -- lots of improv, no rehearsals, hand-held, young directors, etc., etc. -- I feel it behooves me to give post that extra shot to get it right even if I don't. Most of the time I do, even when surprised. It's that small percentage of lost surprises I would have nightmares about were it not for iso tracks.

-- Jan

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Can we include in this thread thoughts about mixing wireless and boom mics together onto a mono mix track?

Up til now I have been working on a SD 442, and am now adding an actual mixing panel to my arsenal.

In the past I have had some luck blending both booms and lavs when I've needed to, and other times not. 

So how do you guys deal with getting what you need?  I know this is all dependent on the situation...but is it often a bit like "reinforcement?" For example adding a lav to the boom channel if a particular voice is too far off mic?  This is the way I've mostly proceeded and been successful, as it gives me the most consistent sounding blend of dialog vs BG/ambient/roomtone.  I like to think of it kind of like playing "zone defense" - but also, being careful to keep channels down or off as much as possible.

Anyone up for a discussion of the "art of mixing?"

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I hate to oversimplify Crew's work, but my experience on commercials is... Record the same few lines DOZENS of times, and then record them ALL again wild at the end of the day.  I know there's a little more to it than that, Crew ;-)

On small features with short schedules and inexperienced directors, as Jan has pointed out, ISO tracks afford a safety net.

What I enjoy about mixing with the ISOs available is the ability to be more aggressive and creative about my mix. But with 2 or 3 cameras shooting different sizes and coverage, I might pick the "wrong" mix for the picture edit. The ISOs give the post mixer the opportunity to remix me.

My friend Steve Morrow always amazed me with his ability to do a two track mix in the DAT days, separating the tracks in whichever way best "isolated" actors who might overlap, or phase, or had clothing noise.  Listening L/R too.  I never learned this skill, and not sure I ever could have.  Single track mix with or without ISOs delivered is what I concentrate on.

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Hey Jan, my way works for me but it is specific to my commercial market. They go to air sooner than ever and there is little time for remixing a spot if it is shot in a scripted manner and most are. 30 seconds and specific words that have been worked to death.

 If I may hop into the way back machine. I always wanted to do multitrack sound because of Robert Altman and his films even though Jimmy Webb, one of my great mentors who pioneered the form, always said that it was a terrible way to work. I finally got my shot on a series of Nike commercials in the mid 90's with the much loved director Joe Pytka. My brother Moe was my boom op back then and we had a gig w Joe in San Francisco with 14 principals in a black barbershop. We used 2 DA88's and a 24 channel Mackie board mixed down to a Nagra stc unit for dailies. As we all know this is the classic cluster F*$% style of working. Well somehow we got 14 radios to work and guess what? Jim was right. I became a tracking engineer, not a mixer. The tracks all went down well enough and I did split them 7 n 7 on the Nagra because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Well that long day came to an end and after we wrapped up all the gear and were having a beer at the 4 Seasons, we decided we didn't really want to work in this manner. I decided to charge double the gear plus the radios of course. Somehow I thought the price would be a deterrent in the future. We had a job w Joe the next week and he gave us a very rare compliment. Said he never wanted to see a boom again. So started Joe and multitrack. I soon bailed out and gave the account to Moe and they still do multitrack about a third of the shoots at double rental rate.. A year or so after the Nike spot, we learned from the editor that they used my mix track for the spot. They didn't know what to do w the tapes we turned in. We were stunned. I hardly even listened to the Nagra tracks. The spot sounded real, but it could of been better had I just made a mix and not worried about the iso's. That taught me a couple of things. For me the mix is the thing, but if they want the extra tracks and ask for them up front, then of course I keep the customer satisfied. Long old story, but something to do on a boring day at work without much to record or do.

CrewC

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