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commercial protocol and backup recording


greg sextro

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hey all

curious if i could get some opinions from you all about protocol as far as recording backups on commercial shoots.

i have only recently been doing commecial shoots.  thus far i show up with my 744t and 302, mics, wireless, etc...but so far have not been rolling a backup recorder really...

i also have an fr-2.  i have been thinking that maybe i should utilizing it.  i have not had any problems with the 744t...but, would it be bad to connect the fr-2 from the analog outs of the 744t?  i guess i could split the 302 to both recorders, but i sometimes use one or two of the preamps on the 744 in addition to the 302.

thoughts or opinions are greatly appreciated.

-greg-

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There's been a lot of discussion about backups, what a real backup is, what the need for it is and how it might be recorded and delivered on this forum and on RAMPS over the years.  Current recording equipment is very reliable (esp. post DAT, and that was pretty reliable for me as well), but problems can occur.  You as a mixer have to decide how you want to manage the risk of not recording or losing the recording of a keeper take and act accordingly.  My own opinion is that if rolling a redundant recorder is easy (ie I'm on a cart and have a boom op), then why not?  In the DAT era, rolling two machines had a definite maintenance cost, and many of us rolled a cheaper non-TC DAT as the backup to save the hours on our TC machines.  But in NL recording there is little or no wear involved by comparison, so why not?  I freely admit that the likely need for the back up will arise due to my own error or inattention rather than an equipment problem beyond my control, but since I know that about myself I try to mitigate the risks as best I can.

In your set up I would feed the FR2 from a split of the output of your 302.  That will put the audio closer to being in sync to the audio the SD recorder is recording, since I believe the 744 will add some latency to the audio that is passed thru it.  Also, you don't want to be feeding the backup machine from the convertors of the primary, as a digital audio problem, incorrect setting or power-down of the primary will take down the backup too. 

Philip Perkins

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Hey Greg, seasons greetings from LA. Another Sunday on the set for me, my brother Moe is working downtown, as is our partner Peter Commans, we all do commercials 99.9 % of the time and we never roll back up of our Deva's. As long as we punch the big red button, all is well and our dvdram goes off to telecine and the original recording lives on the hard drive for a month or so until we recycle the folder for a new job. This system has worked 100% of the time for us. Unless you want to sell more media, or wear out a second machine, I see no reason to roll 2 recorders unless it is a request and you are paid for 2 recorders. I do know a few sound bros that roll a dat with there hard drive recorders cause they haven't gotten a comfort level going yet, but my advice(free of course, so beware) is that you don't need to roll back up, but I may be missing another POV.

CrewC

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There's been a lot of discussion about backups, what a real backup is, what the need for it is and how it might be recorded and delivered on this forum and on RAMPS over the years.  Current recording equipment is very reliable (esp. post DAT, and that was pretty reliable for me as well), but problems can occur.Philip Perkins

What Philip says, and Crew C. as well, about the reliability of the primary recorder, is very important. I can really only speak for the Deva because that is the machine I have used the longest, and I have reached that comfort level long ago, completely confident that, as Crew C. ponts out, if I hit the REC button I will have a recording. As I have said in the past, I used to run 2 machines, not to backup any potential failure of my Deva, but to backup potential failures in post procedures (daily transfers). In the early days oif non-linear, these sorts of procedural faiilures were quite common --- thankfully now almost all major post facilities have also reached this comfort level and the procedures involved in dealing with DVD-RAM disks is pretty much routine.

Again, I can only speak for use of the Deva (because other machines do things somewhat differently) but the only other reason to backup the Deva (concurrent recording to a different machine) would be protect that ONE take where the hard drive could fail in the middle of a take. I really treat this kind of failure as similar to a film camera JAM --- if it happens, you just have to say cut, we need to go again, etc. Unlike a camera jam, however, this is so unlikely to occur ever (it has never happened to me in 9 years on non-linear recording, over 2000 "sound rolls") that I do not feel the need to run a backup machine.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Hey Jeff, hope your enjoying your x-mas break from RH3, I know Don is working with Moe this week, so he won't be resting or whatever, but I hope you are. I have a question for you that is a little off this topic, but what the hey. Do you ever change the int. hard drive in your Deva, you know, rotate them for even wear n tear, or do you wait till that fatefull day when it dies. I am geting the new 100 gig drive during my year end break, so it should be good for quite a while, but since I don't participate on the deva user group yet, I wonder if there is a POV concerning drives?

CrewC

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I run a backup for all the reasons stated here. Post is not infallible as we all know and if my backup system saves the day once in my career, then it's worth it to me. I've run two systems ever since my mono Nagra days, and even then the dat was the backup to the Nagra not vice versa. I realize this is a personal issue and all opinions are valid but I can't help agreeing with the school of thought that opines "why not?" The psychological support that a backup system has provided over the years has been well worth any expense I've incurred.

Regards

Mick

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I have a question for you that is a little off this topic, but what the hey. Do you ever change the int. hard drive in your Deva, you know, rotate them for even wear n tear, or do you wait till that fatefull day when it dies.

CrewC

Excellent question and not off topic at all. With the old Deva II I did end up changing out the hard drive several times, mostly because larger capacity drives became available over time, so it just happened. With the Deva IV, large capacity drive to begin with, variable folder size and so forth, I imagine the drive will be in place longer. I do have spare drives, ready to go if there is a problem, but I have thought about formulating a plan to avoid what I am being told (by Courtney and others) is inevitable disaster. The current wisdom is that the hard drive should be retired and replaced after 3 years of use. This is conservative and safe guideline, I believe, and also assumes that the Deva is very busy during those three years. If, of course, you are NOT working (it does happen to all of us) then the 3 years is probably way too soon.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Hey Mick, greetings... If I were working a show like yours, or a film, I might think about a fail/safe system just because the stakes are higher what with $$$ and performances and egos, etc, and because that kind of project has a very long life span. Where as a commercial has a super short (thankfully) life span and no matter the greatness of a performance, you will do many many more takes anyway. I think a system like the Deva is more than enough for commercials. Unless I'm misstaken, the 4 trk SD recorder would work as well. Of course if something makes you feel good, how can it be so bad, or something like that. Cheers.....  Hey Jeff thanks for the info... my Deva 4 runs alot, and as you well know we commercial people do a boatload of takes and I'm sure this start stop burn start stop really tests the system. So far so good, (over 2 years). By the way, when I was asking you my question today as I was rolling on the set, I hit the 250th segment of my folder and as I'm sure you know, you can only have 250 segs per folder in v2.28, so when I tried to roll the 251st seg. and it wouldn't record, my 1st thought was that my drive died. Not a good 1st thought, lucky for me I knew about this limitation and started a new folder as soon as my heart started. As far as Greg's original question, I would never go out without a back-up system, but I wouldn't use it as a double system, to much media n wearn tear n what not for the commercial world, unless of course I was getting paid for it, then I think it's a great idea.

CrewC out and about....

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hey everyone

thanks for your thoughts.  your responses have been great because i was very curious what it is mixers are doing now as well as what they USED to do.  i think what i am going to start doing is to bring the fr-2 with me, but not neccessarily roll it...maybe keep it in a case nearby and ready to go so i have a backup unit if something goes wrong with my 744t.  also then, if i feel it is neccessary, i can run both machines split from my 302.

i wonder if there are any sd7 series users out there who have had drive problems?  i haven't, and don't recall hearing from anyone who has. i know very little about the deva, so can't compare it as far as reliability.

i agree with jeff that we, as recordists, are allowed the occasional mistake of a hardware malfunction!  and if that is the case, then there should be little gripe from anyone on set if such a thing occurs.

--------

seasons greetings everyone!  i am off on vacation as of tomorrow to the beautiful state of washington to visit extended family, and then down to the cali bay area to visit the homestead.  happy new year, my best to everyone.

-greg-

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Guest tourtelot

I have been, as a rule, running both the DV824 and the 744T when I am on the cart although it seems ludicris to have 4 clones of the dialog for every setup.  I have had post call me once with a "corupt file" (where ever and however it was corupted) and I simply burned another copy of that take to a garden-variety DVD from the HDD of the DV824 and sent it in.  All was good.  I am sometimes surprised that even after all these years, something weird happens and the second machine saves me from myself.  I like the story about filling up a partition and not understanding why the machine won't go into record.  It is a real heart-stopper.  Happened to me and it took two whole takes onto the 744T before I figured out why the DV824 wouldn't record.  Doh!

What I have been doing was taking the CF card from the 744T home at night and copying it on to an external HDD, which I sold to the company at the end of the job.  Every track from thewhole movie.  But I really hate the home-work and I am thinking about a better way to do this going into a full season of episodic.  Haven't really figured out what to do quite yet; perhaps a disc copy of yesterday's work onto a HDD while waiting for the first shot, or, well, who knows?  Now that the 744T will copy onto an external FW drive, it might be pretty simple and not get in the way of the set up.  I'll let the group knows what finally comes to pass in January.

Y'all have a great Holiday!

D.

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Hey guys,

As another 99.9% commercial mixer, I thought I'd add my thoughts to the mix.  Like many of us, I spend years handing in the 1/4" with zero back-up.  DAT followed and there was a little more teeth gnashing as the cassettes are small and fragile (as in: easy to lose, crush fold spindle and mutilate).  So, back-up became my norm.  Now, although confidence in my 744T is pretty high, (it did hiccup the other day and needed a powerdown hard re-boot) and with the knowledge that the audio is recorded on a hard drive, a compact flash card and a DVD-ram, do I back-up on a second machine?  You bet.  And here's why.

First, I am less concerned about the cost factors (wear and tear, etc.) of running a second machine than those of my personal time and the fact that I'm a one-man business.  Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to provide cheerful full service to my clients and I am not as mercenary as it may sound.  But, sometimes I just cannot be very helpful after the job is over.  I am usually on to something else and often not available to burn a new disc and rush it to some desperate editor who can't find Scene 305 Take 23.

So, I hand in two media.  In my case a DVD ram and a DAT (soon to be two DVD's) and tell the company to send one in and hold tight to the other one.  That way if some PA accidently eats the first one, the company has the back-up and you don't get the 3:30am call (although you'll probably get it anyhow).

The second reason to back-up on a second media is simply that you can honestly answer, "of course I roll back-up and your production people have it", when the producer calls at 3:35am.

Cynical?  Maybe.  But, my experience has taught me that production doesn't understand or care much about compact flash cards, or files residing on a hard drive on your recorder which is on a truck heading to Lone Pine on Sunday morning.  So, I say give them the back-up and let them worry about e-mailing the files to the editor in Australia.

Just a rant after 16 consecutive days of work.  Happy Holidays to all.

Bruce

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Just a quick note to address the hard disk issues brought up above.  Remember that hard drives are designed to run in computers, not recorders, which is generally far more taxing on them.  Yes, hard disks in DVRs (your Tivo or cable recorder) are recording constantly for months at a time without shutdown, so the stress our recorders place on them is much less.  The rated "mean time between failures" or MTBF for hard disks averages generally at 1,000,000 hours or so, so you don't have to worry too much until you approach 750,000 hours or so (roughly 85 years).  That isn't to say that a drive can't or won't fail, but generally speaking, hard disks are pretty stable and reliable.  It is more likely (as has happened with Jeff) that the technology will advance faster than the need to replace your drive.  And, no, I don't work for a hard disk manufacturer, though I do have a good friend that used to work for IBM/Hitatchi storage systems division.  He has told me horror stories about drives failing, but considering the number of drives that have been produced, the actual failure rate is very low.

Anyway, just a few interesting facts.  Maybe off topic.  Sorry.

Phil

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I have been, as a rule, running both the DV824 and the 744T when I am on the cart although it seems ludicris to have 4 clones of the dialog for every setup.  I have had post call me once with a "corupt file" (where ever and however it was corupted) and I simply burned another copy of that take to a garden-variety DVD from the HDD of the DV824 and sent it in.  All was good.  I am sometimes surprised that even after all these years, something weird happens and the second machine saves me from myself.  I like the story about filling up a partition and not understanding why the machine won't go into record.  It is a real heart-stopper.  Happened to me and it took two whole takes onto the 744T before I figured out why the DV824 wouldn't record.  Doh!

What I have been doing was taking the CF card from the 744T home at night and copying it on to an external HDD, which I sold to the company at the end of the job.  Every track from thewhole movie.  But I really hate the home-work and I am thinking about a better way to do this going into a full season of episodic.  Haven't really figured out what to do quite yet; perhaps a disc copy of yesterday's work onto a HDD while waiting for the first shot, or, well, who knows?  Now that the 744T will copy onto an external FW drive, it might be pretty simple and not get in the way of the set up.  I'll let the group knows what finally comes to pass in January.

Y'all have a great Holiday!

D.

I've been having good luck w/ running a real-time DVD-RAM w/ the 702T, and of course that allows me to just eject the disk at the end of the day (esp. w/ only 2 tr) instead of starting a burn @ that point... 

Philip Perkins

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Hey guys,

As another 99.9% commercial mixer, I thought I'd add my thoughts to the mix.  Like many of us, I spend years handing in the 1/4" with zero back-up.  DAT followed and there was a little more teeth gnashing as the cassettes are small and fragile (as in: easy to lose, crush fold spindle and mutilate).  So, back-up became my norm.  Now, although confidence in my 744T is pretty high, (it did hiccup the other day and needed a powerdown hard re-boot) and with the knowledge that the audio is recorded on a hard drive, a compact flash card and a DVD-ram, do I back-up on a second machine?  You bet.  And here's why.

First, I am less concerned about the cost factors (wear and tear, etc.) of running a second machine than those of my personal time and the fact that I'm a one-man business.  Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to provide cheerful full service to my clients and I am not as mercenary as it may sound.  But, sometimes I just cannot be very helpful after the job is over.  I am usually on to something else and often not available to burn a new disc and rush it to some desperate editor who can't find Scene 305 Take 23.

So, I hand in two media.  In my case a DVD ram and a DAT (soon to be two DVD's) and tell the company to send one in and hold tight to the other one.  That way if some PA accidently eats the first one, the company has the back-up and you don't get the 3:30am call (although you'll probably get it anyhow).

The second reason to back-up on a second media is simply that you can honestly answer, "of course I roll back-up and your production people have it", when the producer calls at 3:35am.

Cynical?  Maybe.  But, my experience has taught me that production doesn't understand or care much about compact flash cards, or files residing on a hard drive on your recorder which is on a truck heading to Lone Pine on Sunday morning.  So, I say give them the back-up and let them worry about e-mailing the files to the editor in Australia.

Just a rant after 16 consecutive days of work.  Happy Holidays to all.

Bruce

My story is pretty much the same, so I roll and burn backups.  I acknowledge that it may be an emotional issue above all, and I FEEL better on the job when I know I'm rolling a backup.

So I do.

Philip Perkins 

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Hey Bruce and all, it is wacky wild work time in L.A. for sure. I hope we all survive and get to enjoy the holidays. B.P. makes many valid points in his post, but for me the #1 was that production doesn't know or care about our world. A dailies problem is always a sound problem no matter what is happining in telecine and there for the call goes to us and not the cameraman who rolls after the stix, or whatever. But I don't see how giving them double media helps, to me it gives Prod. more of a chance to fuck up. Once you hand in the dvdram or media dejur at the end of the day, the ball is and should be in there court. Once the dailies house gets it, they hold it with the negative until the job is over and done, the balls in there court. Telecine then sends a dat or dvd clone with editors timecode along with dailies to the editor. If there is say wild track on the master dvd you handed in and noted to transfer all WTs to dailies, but somehow it didn't get done, the telecine house can, should and would Whale mail it or put it on their server for the editor. And if the PA eats it or tries to play it in his car and screws it up somehow, well then it's hero time for the mixer and the back up on your hard drive will save the day, of course unless your rig is on a truck on its way to Lone Pine, then , Well it's a bad day in Mixerville USA. The other point you make about being a one man biz and the fickelness of that reality is a subject we could all add many war stories to. As far as being mercenary or cynical, I don't think so. Everywhere I roll I always hear Bruce Perlman is a good dude and a pro. Can't wait for this december to remember to end so I can chill with my wife and even the kids, cause 2007 will be here in the blink of an eye. Hope to see you n Ron soon.

CrewC

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