Rob Lewis Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Working as a news/eng mixer is a good part of my work besides my traveling reality show work. Most of the news stuff is ABC & NBC stories, talking heads and newsmag shows. I work with a variety of shooters whom some are good and some are not so good. My question in this post is how to deal with the not so good. How do you deal with a shooter that has lousy lighting skills ? What do I do when I can light the interview better than he can? and often have to step in to do so to save the shoot for a panicking producer. I have 8 years experience in the Network News world, and I know what they expect as far as the look of the interview. I feel that part of my reputation and role as a mixer is that I'm outgoing and willing to help light, but when the sound mixer has to step in and fix lighting to rescue the interview is getting old and possibly crossing the line. This refers to a specific person who is now the main shooter for a production/uplink company that gives me a lot of work. What do you all do in this situation? Is my role only to record good sound, or, do whatever is necesscary to make the overall shoot a success as a 2 mang ENG team? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffrey Colon Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 I just help cover their butts by sitting in and holding up a white card... and then asking what is the "motivation" for keying from the outside... I feel your pain... and then I remember, I am still learning. (20 years)... As ENG soundos we get to observe many different styles. I too, cringe, when I feel it could have been better if it were not for the sensitive ego of some insecure operator. Scott is "right on" in that you will have to be the judge of just how much you can contribute without offending anyone... which with time is inevitable. Sharing the work is one thing, but the photog usually is "in charge"... for this reason, I will defer to whatever they want, and afterwards, "move on", trying to take a positive lesson from a sometimes negative situation. IMO, synergy within an ENG EFP crew is the goal, and sometimes the challenge. I laugh inside a bit wondering what the guys here who deal with the politics of "ego" on features think of our little world... Jeff C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Egos are the same pretty much across the board. We've all been in situations where we have to just bite the tounge -- maybe share it with someone down the road (ie: this and other forums) to get that little bit of well deserved recognition... or vindication. It doesn't matter -- whether you're standing next to Samuel L. and Irwin Winkler... or some European DP that's hell bent on using every frickin' piece of lighting and diffusion on the production's 3+ 10-tons to 'perfect' his light soup -- if someone is messing up, you could easily be the fall guy just for noticing, let alone saying anything. There's a joke among musicians that goes something like: "Who are those guys always hanging around musicians? ...drummers." Well to a degree, in the eyes of those who (ironically) think about filmmaking only with their eyes, we Sound Guys are the drummers of the moving picture world. We're not supposed to know what a 2/8 split is -- let alone care... so when we do, people get really touchy. Yeah, kid gloves... or better yet, buy a camera and lighting package (or rent one) and diversify your business. In any case, hang in there -- don't get cynical -- it would only perpetuate the stereotype that some folks have about Production Sound Mixers. : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Telling the shooter how to light a setup is fine as long as you're ok with him telling you how to record the sound. What's fair is fair. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 exactly -- though I suspect we sound guys know a little more about lighting (just by necessity) than shooters know about say, compression and rarefaction... therein lies the rub. : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Where does a difference in taste and style crossover into needing to step in to make sure a job doesn't go south? Probably pretty far down the line of possible scenarios I'd say, as in the producer or director being visibly and verbally unhappy with what they are seeing, and even turning to you and asking you directly to help out. Otherwise, yes, you can probably light as well or better than a lot of the ENG shooters working out there, but they are the ones who have bought cameras and done the schmooze to get shooting work (a lot harder than getting work as a sound person I'd say, and with a bigger investment @ the ENG level anyhow) and our job is to support them as best we can. Teams that regularly work together have this dance aleady worked out, one of the challenges in working with new folks is to make it appear that you are already a team. I'm sure that you are being as reticent as you think you can be and still have the job work well, I just caution you to go easy for your own reputation--nobody likes a backseat driver. And, if you end up deciding to move over to the "other side", you wouldn't be the first ENG sound guy who, after seeing what the talent and skill level was in their local camera community, decided they could do it at least as well as the competition..... Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Yeah, talk about a touchy situation -- when you start getting requests for non sound-related advice from above the line... oh dear. Talk about a fast way to make everyone on the crew hate you. Whenever he's asked about something not related to sound, my good friend Steve Jones will always reply, "I don't know, but it sounds good... that's a great sounding couch." I guess when Producers start hiring Sound guys who in-turn hire DP's and shooters, we'll have a little more say... what?... it could happen : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffrey Colon Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 How many times have I had to nix the couch because it sounded bad... more than a few. Beautiful Antiques have a way of creaking... now it's my turn to shut up... Jeff C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 You just made my day! I'm going to laugh about this several times today. Thanks!  Yeah, those stupid stupid Art people... with their stupid stupid noisy couches. Seriously, why don't they consult us? Oh wait, I know -- my taste is in my mouth. OK, now I'm shutting up... again... I swear... no really, I won't say another... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffrey Colon Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 LMAO... Brother; when I leave this world, I do not want a headstone with some morbid eptiaph about what was... I want a "background" with a couch, a small end table and lamp... maybe a nice arrangement of flowers... That'l show those mofos... Happy Holy Days All... and may the spirit of the season be with us always. Jeff C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecrabb Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 I feel for you Rob. When I've been in that situation, I've just bit my tongue and done the best sound job for the client. With the shooters that I work with on a regular basis, we have a routine where he (or she) sets up the lights while I set up my rig, the camera and the monitor. When that's done, we switch places and he (or she) watches the monitor and has me tweak the lights. It becomes more of a synergistic relationship that way and is better for the both of us I think. By the way, I love the musician analogy, though I've always said that sound was the bass player, in that nobody even knows you're there--until you aren't. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Two of the Great Laws of post production audio work are: 1: No good deed goes unpunished. 2: Never fail to enjoy any opportunity to keep your mouth shut. It probably applies just as well to production, not to mention marriage. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted December 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 It is just so hard to know that the assignment desk is going to other shooter because this guy "can't handle the job" and it is costing me work because they are not calling him. The owner of the company he works for is the guy they request all the time, but he is semi retired from shooting and just runs the uplinks truck's when it is busy. He wont take the time to train this kid the proper lighting skills and shooting techniques that the networks require from good freelance shooters. When I worked there he never trained me to do field audio, but luckily my success came from the knowledge I acquired in a studio recording college, as well as my dedication to researching and asking questions on forums like this !!! As far as the musicians analogy goes, I completed 3 years of college as a percussion major before going off to recording school. LOL !! That joke never gets old !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 That's so funny, I dropped out (well, 'withdrew' is actually the correct term) after 3 years as a Comp/Performance major -- also in percussion -- to work on a movie of all things! I didn't want to be a teacher though -- a band teacher at some middle-American middle school. Yeah, Bassists get it too. I've played and recorded music now for about 20 years and I too still laugh every time I hear that joke. Hey, we should form a band. We could make... well, TENS of dollars -- if not dozens! You guys are all a RIOT! Who says sound guys are just cranky cynical ex-musicians? They're just jealous because we wrap when talent does. Just kidding : ) I like recording... especially wild nat sound of the DP mouth-breathing and the HD cams' ever-so-pleasant non-overrideable head-cleaning polyphony. That'll come in REAL handy in post. : ) Happy non-secular holiday season to all of you, BTW. --tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Paine Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 I find it funny, that over the years of doing sound for many different DP's I've learned more about lighting then Sound, just because I'm usualy the only sound guy there. So often times shooters will ask for my opinion about set ups. They know I've worked with most other guys in town, and I can sometimes let them know of a trick another guy uses. And it works the other way too. Because these shooters have worked with lots of different sound guys, they will often give me suggestions if i need help. I remember one time i was trying to hide a lav on a troublesome piece of wardrobe, and it was the DP who told me about a little tape trick he had seen another sound guy use. when you work with the right people, giving opinions and suggestions about our work should be encouraged. It's how we can all become better at our crafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mick Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 How come the producer doesn't clue in to the camera man's shortcomings? If they continue to hire a guy that can't light as well as the sound man then they deserve what they get. I had some similar experiences in the 90's on Hard Copy, but soon learned that on that particular show being seen but not heard boosted your re-hire chances. Regards Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Hey Mick et all, seasons greetings. I've been reading this tread with interest and have been wondering the same thing about the producer. Since I no jack about ENG world I thought there was something that I didn't understand. I think Philips 2 rules of post prod are great and most certainly are true of production, and being married for 30 plus years, I would say they are true in that regard as well. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted December 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Mick & old school,  On this last particular gig there was no producer on location as it was a speakerphone interview, last minute for ABC World News. When there is a producer he/she trys to coax the look they want out of this guy until they give up and have to start the interview. I try to quietly step in and make adjustments so we can move on. The producer seems to not say anything to the shooter, but at the end of the day he/she comes to me and says thanks for your hard work. Thats great for me !!!, but they go back to the assignment desk and tell them that so and so camera man is not very good, so in the end they don't call him very often which in turn effects my workload. The more I have thought about this, the more I realized that by saving his butt all the time, the network never really complains to his boss about his lack of skills, and no one learns a lesson !!!  If they start getting complaints then maybee his boss will either give him a lesson in lighting, or he will be replaced. I'm just getting tired of doing my job and 3/4 of the shooters job as well !!! Be gald too if I get paid my rate + 3/4 of his rate !!!!!!!!!!! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Mayer Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Rob, If you are on good terms with the boss, maybe you should bring it up with him. It is a touchy situation, but it will be important to him once he starts loosing the ABC work because producers don't want to work with his #2 guy. If you can get the problem fixed before it comes to that the #1 guy should thank you profusely. ---Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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