Adam Jones Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Greetings all: I've done way too much work with the Canon DSLRs lately. I'm certainly glad to be busy, but I'm getting a little weary of the endless technical issues. Here's the latest: Every shoot I've done with the cameras since the firmware upgrade last spring have synced just fine. No issues that I've ever been called on. When possible, I send at least one camera a reference audio feed, but I don't go to extreme lengths to do it. Every single shoot I've used 29.97ND or 23.976 TC. Every online reference just says 29.97. A client is experimenting with pulling actual time of day timecode from the cameras files, something to do with the Magic Lantern software, I think. This client believes that the cameras are running dropframe TC. I have no idea where to find the information to respond to this. When he compares the time of day stamp on the cameras to my slate (29.97NDF), the cameras (all 4!) consistently drift ahead ~10 seconds over 5 hours. Any thoughts? If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gilchrist Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 The producer is reading the time stamps on the files and the clock runs in real time. The files have no timecode. Your timecode will eventually drift to run behind the time stamp times just like all 29.97 NDF timecode will drift against real time, and that's why there is drop frame timecode. If it works, don't let him fix it for you. If the files sync, who really cares about the numbers. Best regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Jones Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Thanks Jim - That is just the argument I made - ToD is not the same as SMPTE timecode, even if FCP will accept the ToD stamp as a basis for initial TC. Sometimes it's nice to have other voices assure me that I'm not wrong! It does seem that these little DSLRs [which have made me a good amount of money in the last year!] have been the source of more speculation, misinformation, and outright confusion than any other piece of equipment I've ever worked with. Thanks, Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 You're right, Adam. You could point to your wristwatch and say, "This is what the 5D has -- a clock. But, that isn't time code." Try not to sound sarcastic or smug, of course. John B., CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Jones Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Ha! Unfortunately, I sound sarcastic when I say 'Good morning'.... Is there a filter for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Ha! Unfortunately, I sound sarcastic when I say 'Good morning'.... Is there a filter for that? Yes. To implement it you place your lower lip firmly against your upper lip and maintain that position. John B., CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I hope your client doesn't decide to use the hacked camera firmware. It will instantly void his warranty. We often find that the 5D's own audio is out of sync with its picture by 2 frames. No one has been able to explain this to us. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg sextro Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 We often find that the 5D's own audio is out of sync with its picture by 2 frames. No one has been able to explain this to us. phil p phil - could this possibly be that the camera itself has a bad clock? i've definitely come across issues when posting shoots done of the 5D or 7D and syncing done with plural eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael McQueen Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 with canon's eos e1 final cut plugin so that you can log and transfer with 5d/7d files it will take the time stamp from when the file was created and then apply time code to that number. i've only used it for a reference(to find in/out points) and would not use it to sync files. i've never tested its syncing but i'm a huge advocate of plural eyes. the only way i'd trust a time code syncing process with a dslr is if it were being fed smpte code via an audio channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 folks: It is designed to be a STILL camera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 folks: It is a STILL camera ...that's getting used as a video camera all day everyday everywhere. Adapt or die! phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 " Adapt or die! " yes, of course!! but do not expect it to have the professional features or capabilities of professional cameras built to be professional video & movie cameras / camcorders. It doesn't, and it won't; of course, there will be more models, and they may, but that will probably be at a price! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 " Adapt or die! " yes, of course!! but do not expect it to have the professional features or capabilities of professional cameras built to be professional video & movie cameras / camcorders. It doesn't, and it won't; of course, there will be more models, and they may, but that will probably be at a price! What I expect or think is professional doesn't matter at all to clients and shooters who have already decided to use this camera before they even called me for the job. After it became clear that people who hire me were in love w/ the 5D I did a lot of tests and demo shoots to figure out a good workflow while still delivering good sound. I figure that's what is expected of me. Now we are testing the Panasonic AF100 and Arri Alexa (for audio), because the people who make the camera choices have (or will have) a love thing going with them, also regardless of what I think. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Jones Posted February 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I've got to agree with Phil on this - I don't think I've ever been consulted about what camera a job will be shot on! To be fair, it really doesn't matter to me, as long as I get to record on my choice of recorder and the camera sees a slate. I've actually worked 2 jobs in the last 2 weeks that had portions shot on super 8. The difficulty lately has been explaining to producers that although their camera cost under $2k, my equipment rate for audio doesn't go down. In fact, with producers used to a single system video workflow, it goes up! I can't count how many times in the last year I've heard a horrified reaction when I quote an equipment rate, usually something like "But it's just video! Can't you give us a break?!?" It's hard to communicate to a lot of people that I'm not bringing extra gear for my own amusement or to pad the invoice - that it's actually required to do a sync sound shoot. Somehow $250 to rent a $2000 still camera to shoot video is fine [because it's cheaper than a real camera rental,] but an extra 250 for sound to pay for a $6000 recorder & timecode slate is unreasonable. That being said, these little cameras have been quite good to me over the last year. I'll be optimistic & hope that the process introduces people to dual system workflow - and that they learn the advantages. Time will tell... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 " figure out a good workflow while still delivering good sound. " you are correct, sir; we are in agreement! " endless technical issues. " and just as Philip said, we must figure out what works, -and what does not work- and make our best recommendations; these products will almost certainly not be changed or improved to meet our needs or desires. as Philip also said: we must adapt, or perish I'm finding for the schools I teach at, double system is coming back. (I'm also finding students in the Master's Degree program who have not had any sound class!!) Part of the difficult issue is that the typically inexperienced "semi-pro's" who find these inexpensive toys enabling seem to think we deserve le$$ so that they can make money often by lowballing... Sometimes that works for them, but as Whitney has reported elsewhere on this forum, sometimes it does not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 ...yes the difficult issue is that the usually inexperienced "semi-pro's" who find these inexpensive toys enabling seem to think we deserve le$$ so that they can make more... I think you're being a bit unfair with your characterization. What has been happening is that while the high end projects often still receive decent funding, the middle level projects have seen shrinking budgets. The production companies who hire us are being put into the position of doing more with less. They're finding that the DSLRs are a tool that helps them accomplish this. That doesn't mean that we in the sound department should cave on our rates, but characterizing this as a "money grab" is to be misinformed about the current state of affairs. John B., CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engaudio Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 It's hard to communicate to a lot of people that I'm not bringing extra gear for my own amusement or to pad the invoice - that it's actually required to do a sync sound shoot. Somehow $250 to rent a $2000 still camera to shoot video is fine [because it's cheaper than a real camera rental,] but an extra 250 for sound to pay for a $6000 recorder & timecode slate is unreasonable. Had that conversation last week about a low budget "film" It was fine to shoot wide and tight, but how dare I say I'll have to use radios for all 6 cast and a SD788 cause they want iso's, then charge for it! I didn't bother recommending anyone I knew... Grant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I think you're being a bit unfair with your characterization. What has been happening is that while the high end projects often still receive decent funding, the middle level projects have seen shrinking budgets. The production companies who hire us are being put into the position of doing more with less. They're finding that the DSLRs are a tool that helps them accomplish this. That doesn't mean that we in the sound department should cave on our rates, but characterizing this as a "money grab" is to be misinformed about the current state of affairs. John B., CAS True re the "middle" budget projects--they aren't "middle budget" any more-- they are LOW budget, and the REALLY LOW budg stuff is being done by one-man-band newbies. And yes, the perceived cheapness of the cameras (but NOT the accessories for same) has resulted in a even bigger downward pressure on equipment rates for soundies. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 " a bit unfair with your characterization. " edited/modified... " bigger downward pressure on equipment rates for soundies. " bigger downward pressure on equipment and rates for soundies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Green Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Yes I'm currently working on a feature that is shooting on 5D. They have a budget that will afford them a basic package no time code multi-track. We have a two man crew (boom and myself) I'm making them dumb slate-clap everything. At least this production is better than the last 4 or 5 calls I've got to do a RED feature. One group (out of LA) came into town wanted me and gear 4 (6 day) weeks, 12 hr days. Said they could pay me $1500 (total- works out to $62.50 a day)! I told them that would only cover gas and expendables LOL. I'm not sure who they got because the other guys in the area got the same call and gave the same answer. So whatever they shoot on if they offer to pay rate or even close to rate I consider it a valid offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Said they could pay me $1500 (total- works out to $62.50 a day)! I told them that would only cover gas and expendables LOL. These aren't just morons -- these are amateur morons. I tell people like that that it's possible we can use $25-$30 a day just in batteries, if a lot of wireless are involved. $62.50 a day is less than McDonald's wages (for 12 hours, anyway). Send the clients to my Sound Mixer Hell cartoon. (109,000 hits and counting!) --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reboot Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 I can make more money selling CF cards to sound mixer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominiquegreffard Posted April 25, 2011 Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 just a quick question on the 5d timecode subject here: when the camera runs on 24p mode (wich is 23,98 in reality) , i should be running my recorder at 23,98 or 29,97nd right? if it s running 30p should i be running 29,97nd or 30? thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 just a quick question on the 5d timecode subject here: when the camera runs on 24p mode (wich is 23,98 in reality) , i should be running my recorder at 23,98 or 29,97nd right? if it s running 30p should i be running 29,97nd or 30? thanks! Around here accepted practice is to run the audio TC at the frame rate of the camera, so if they are 23.98 then so would you be. In other places/situations they want to audio to be at 29.97 if the camera is 23.98. It's good to ask what they want, but since many of the jobs I do haven't hired posties yet when we shoot my fall back is the match the camera rate. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominiquegreffard Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 Around here accepted practice is to run the audio TC at the frame rate of the camera, so if they are 23.98 then so would you be. In other places/situations they want to audio to be at 29.97 if the camera is 23.98. It's good to ask what they want, but since many of the jobs I do haven't hired posties yet when we shoot my fall back is the match the camera rate. phil p thanks phil! and when the camera runs at 30p (what it says on the display) is that real 30fps or 29.97? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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