Wandering Ear Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I have a shoot coming up this wendesday using the Red EPIC. I was wondering if people have had experience with these cameras yet? Any thing I need to watch out for? According to the red website the epic has for audio: 2 channel, uncompressed, 24 bit, 48KHz. Optional 4 channel, and AES / EBU digital audio. I can't seem to find a user manual for download, so I haven't been able to figure out what the input connectors are. From looking at the 360 degree view on the website, it looks like the audio inputs are 1/8" trs connectors, is that true? They also say "mic input", so does this camera have line level inputs? How about the AES inputs? I don't see them on the photo. I'd like to figure out the best way to send reference audio into the camera before hand, so I have no surprises once I get into production. TC input looks to be on a lemo 5 pin again, so no worries there. I'd love to hear what others have used to send audio into the EPIC. Thanks Kelsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I've looked at the same pictures as you have and can only find 2-3.5mm mic inputs at the front of the body. Based on that make sure your input cable feeding mic level has a 3.5mm unbalanced plug on the end. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petros Kolyvas Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I've looked at the same pictures as you have and can only find 2-3.5mm mic inputs at the front of the body. Based on that make sure your input cable feeding mic level has a 3.5mm unbalanced plug on the end. Eric The two 3.5mm TRS jacks are balanced mono inputs like you'd hope they be. You might need adapters, but you can feed the camera audio as you'd normally do. What's with all these cameras sticking audio jacks up front though? At least in this case you can use right-angle 3.5mm connectors and not get in the way "too much." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I just worked with the Epic, and although I did not run audio, I had a long conversation with DIT and 3D tech, and the Oakley (I mean RED) guys were there too. There is a "box" which is available to allow XLR inputs and other grown-up connections. Nothing has changed regarding TC from the other RED, but we did not get into audio quality or feed options. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Robert - Thanks for the update. I'm happy to know that nothing has changed in the TC, so even if I have audio feed issues, at least I can be sure my TC sync will be on. After digging through 38 pages of a 180 page thread on the reduser.net forums, it looks like: The "brain" has the 2 1/8" mic jacks on it, which red makes a "scratch" mike for. There is a Basic I/O module that provides mini xlr audio inputs, but I can't tell if they're analog or aes/ebu There is a Pro I/O module that provides full sized xlr inputs with aes/ebu, but I can't tell if it does analog. Looks like I need to get ahold of the DP and find out which modules he owns. Kelsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petros Kolyvas Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I just worked with the Epic, and although I did not run audio, I had a long conversation with DIT and 3D tech, and the Oakley (I mean RED) guys were there too. There is a "box" which is available to allow XLR inputs and other grown-up connections. Nothing has changed regarding TC from the other RED, but we did not get into audio quality or feed options. Robert Yes, the Pro I/O module should have full-size XLR inputs. Modules will fit to the back of the new RED camera bodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Also be aware that when the camera rolls, the fan is now capable of a variable fan speed ie 10, 20, 30% etc. instead of a silent roll. It is set up in the menu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks for the note Graham. Is it possible to turn the fan off in the menu also, or is it always on to some degree? Kelsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I just got off the phone with the DP, and he said that audio isn't enabled on the Epic yet. Makes my job that much easier! -K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I have just started a job here in New Zealand with many Red Epics and have had several weeks in prep with them . We have just last week had audio implemented .It is mic level via either one of the two mic inputs on the front of the camera . I feed these with my IFB100 / erxtcd . The sound is only scratch track but actually not bad for a scratch track especially using the erx as you can vary and set the gain . The lowest speed the cam fans run at is 25% . This is recommended form Red as other wise they overheat and shut down . This is not an ideal situation as on whispered dial the fans can be heard , we have 2 going as it is a 3D project which makes it worse . I don't think this can be called a sound camera in its present build but Red say they can improve the cooling and bring the Fan speed down . One thing to be aware of . In the menu make sure the fans are not on an auto setting where the cam tries to maintain a temperature as the fans surge in speed all the time . Set to 25% and then it will stay at that speed unless it overheats . There is talk of the sound module with AES in etc but don't hold your breath . There are many other features and problems with the camera that needs to be sorted first . Regards Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petros Kolyvas Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I have just started a job here in New Zealand with many Red Epics and have had several weeks in prep with them . We have just last week had audio implemented .It is mic level via either one of the two mic inputs on the front of the camera . I feed these with my IFB100 / erxtcd . The sound is only scratch track but actually not bad for a scratch track especially using the erx as you can vary and set the gain . The lowest speed the cam fans run at is 25% . This is recommended form Red as other wise they overheat and shut down . This is not an ideal situation as on whispered dial the fans can be heard , we have 2 going as it is a 3D project which makes it worse . I don't think this can be called a sound camera in its present build but Red say they can improve the cooling and bring the Fan speed down . One thing to be aware of . In the menu make sure the fans are not on an auto setting where the cam tries to maintain a temperature as the fans surge in speed all the time . Set to 25% and then it will stay at that speed unless it overheats . There is talk of the sound module with AES in etc but don't hold your breath . There are many other features and problems with the camera that needs to be sorted first . Regards Tony Thanks so much for your insight. These are still very early units - hand assembled and machined (their designation is Epic-Ms I believe). While it's sad RED hasn't focused enough on how the camera fits into the "whole" of production it must be wonderful to have a hand in the location sound for The Hobbit! (Educated guess!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hey Tony, Thanks a bunch for the insight. The DP here says he's upgrading the firmware before our shoot on wed, so maybe audio will be activated then. We'll see. It's a bummer about the fans, especially for interiors. Good to know about the auto setting, that would drive me nuts trying to find a fan noise that's constantly changing. Ahhh room tone. I hope where you guys are shooting aren't hit as hard by the earthquake as my friends in Christchurch. It sounds like it's still pretty messed up there. Cheers Kelsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bperlman Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I worked with the Epic recently. Sent audio to the DIT who used the I/O module. I am not certain if it was the Pro or the other version (would that be amateur?). I gave him XLRs and provided the XLR to TA3 adaptors. Of course I ran double system, but the sound in the camera was decent. Oh those fans! We shot on a small hot stage and the DIT was worried that the camera would get too hot. The best compromise we could reach was 30%. I would have preferred "Off", but "the show must go on." However, after hours of nearly continuous running - literally - there was no shutdown. I wonder what fan speed we really could have gotten away with? We did have one other issue: down-convert latency. I haven't seen rubber lips like that since early HD. It looked like at least five or six frames, and was bad enough that I had to dig out my old Behringer Shark to keep the clients happy. Me, I'm in it for the glamour. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Are you guys saying the lowest fan setting is 25%, or the lowest recommended fan setting is 25%? My thought would be to run it at the lowest setting the hardware allows until the first problem occurs, after which compromise based on other ambient noise which might make the RED fan setting irrelevant. The other choice is to have a conversation about "cuts" and "rolls" - the biggest problem with overheating occurs because of long "takes". It would seem that better sound should take priority over "keep rolling" while everyone resets. It must drive the editors nuts too. We could get them on board. Not cutting is just laziness. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Are you guys saying the lowest fan setting is 25%, or the lowest recommended fan setting is 25%? My thought would be to run it at the lowest setting the hardware allows until the first problem occurs, Robert The 25% speed is the recommendation from Red basically saying that they will verbally guarantee the cameras will run in most situations without overheating . We are doing a lot of rolling resets so 25% was the minimum speed to allow for long takes . On an ext on a sunny day (not hot) but with direct sun on the camera it overheated and shut down after 2 takes , incredible . Admittedly that was an old build and since then the heatsinks have been upgraded as has the firmware . We have investigated cooling them with nitrogen and also using our own "quiet" fans from taiwan but its not that easy to start altering the hardware too much . I doubt that they will ever be able to be used with the fans off . These cameras are very small and have a 5k sensor in them plus we are shooting at 48fps as a base rate so there is even more work for the cameras to do . IMHO there was no reason to make these cameras so small . Your right Robert it does drive the Editors nuts with these rolling resets . Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 " verbally guarantee the cameras will run in most situations without overheating . " pretty paper-clad guarantee... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 " verbally guarantee the cameras will run in most situations without overheating . " pretty cotton-clad guarantee... That was my attempt at being diplomatic . This camera is a work in progress . We started testing this camera in its Alpha state several weeks ago . I believe we are now Beta testing it . Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 "Beta testing" is pretty much understood to be testing a product by real prospective customers and / or users allowing them to shake out the product in actual "real life" situations to find additional issues that need to be resolved, yest these fixes, and determine if the product is ready to actually market. Of course a lot of products are actually being further "beta-tested" by the early adopters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Kudos to Red for changing the game of digital picture recording. That said, I haven't seen one on a set since the Alexa came out. I think there are many reasons for this. Maybe the Epic will change a few minds. Time will tell. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Pretty crazy that the new "Spiderman" movie is Beta testing a camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 " Pretty crazy that the new "Spiderman" movie is Beta testing a camera. " and Hobbit ?? yes, I agree, pretty crazy, but perhaps they are receiving some incentives to do so?? And I believe these beta-testers are also receiving extra-normal, super-duper tech support, including on-site (people and spares!); this is typical of Beta-testing -- Arri has done this on selected early Alexia projects, Aaton has done it in support of Penolope. even after all this time, the RED is really still a bit of a "work-in-progress", and a couple of major movies that used it have had serious obstacles to deal with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Yes it is the Hobbit as well as Spiderman that are using these cameras . We have Red people here now for support . I will ask them what they think is a realistic speed for the fans in future builds and report back . There was talk of getting them down to 15% . I have been in contact with John Pritchett on Spiderman , they started earlier than us and they started with a 35% fan speed which he said was a nightmare . Bearing in mind that we both have 2 x cams per rig which adds to the problem . Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I did read a post on the reduser forums from Jim stating that they were still working on the overheating / fan noise issue, and future builds would be better. Don't know what that means, all he said was better. Maybe someone should make an exterior cooling module It's a modular camera right? Fortunately it's usually reasonably cold up here in Seattle, maybe I can get the fans all the way off without issues. We'll see. I get the desire to be small, but personally I'd like functionality to trump size. Guess that's why I'm not a designer -K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 " I get the desire to be small, " Me, too, but has camera size really been a deal breaker on major motion pictures (like these two) made in the last 25 (or so) years ?? While there have been smaller options available, even for "film" cameras, standard size models have continued to dominate the business. I have to suspect that if the hardware is getting hot, changes to the firmware will have little effect, hardware adaptation will likely be needed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Powerful computer systems use a sealed system liquid cooling to cool the processors. Highly effective, and can be made silent. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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