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Using CF as deliverable


Jeff Wexler

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This question goes out to those doing feature movies and/or episodic TV who have managed to wean the production off DVD-RAM. I would like to know some of the details regarding how many CF cards you typically have on hand, do you cycle them back and forth from production to post and re-use, who purchases the cards, are they considered expendable and so forth. Also, has there been any resistance from the studios (and this only applies if the cards are being returned and re-used) that they no longer have a stable archivable media (like tape or an optical disc) for each "sound roll" on the production.

I have quite a few other questions but we'll start with these.

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This question goes out to those doing feature movies and/or episodic TV who have managed to wean the production off DVD-RAM. I would like to know some of the details regarding how many CF cards you typically have on hand, do you cycle them back and forth from production to post and re-use, who purchases the cards, are they considered expendable and so forth. Also, has there been any resistance from the studios (and this only applies if the cards are being returned and re-used) that they no longer have a stable archivable media (like tape or an optical disc) for each "sound roll" on the production.

I have quite a few other questions but we'll start with these.

My present episodic is a hybrid.  It is being shot on the Red and we have a DMT on set.  If he wants a break-off,  I pass off my CF card to him mid-day.  Otherwise,  I hand him my CF card at the end of the day,  in a pelican CF card case.  It usually takes him about 6 - 8 minutes to download my material, if there isn't alot of visual material in the queue.  I often finish packing up and then collect the card from him.  I then email the production office and post the sound report .pdf.  The production likes to have the sound archived to disc as well.  After I email the sound report,  I retire and have my laptop burn a dvd-r.  After the last day of the episode,  I pop all the discs, in cases,  into a bubblewrap envelope.  They get sent off to post. Not sure if the discs are actively used,  or just kept on hand in the event of a catastrophic failure. Since it takes so much longer to ingest large files off of discs,  I am guessing they are archive only.  I am presently using the one Sandisk Extreme III 16gb card.  I found that on heavy multi track days with long takes,  it would get close to the limit of the 8gb card that I had been using.  I feel more comfortable with the 16gb.

ao

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My present episodic is a hybrid.  It is being shot on the Red and we have a DMT on set.  If he wants a break-off,  I pass off my CF card to him mid-day.

ao

Thank you for that, and thank you for stating that yours is a sort of hybrid situation. I say this because I know the acceptance of CF (or other solid state card-based media, and even handing off hard drives) is much more common when the whole project is already so firmly file based. What I am most interested in is the workflows that have typically been long form projects shot on film, possibly now being shot on HD video electronic form (but not necessarily file based, could be still linear tape) and have required a DVD-RAM disc deliverable. Our desire, of course, is to be able to shift these productions over to CF and drop the necessity of optical discs for the deliverable.

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John Pritchett is handing off CF cards to media manager on set of "Spiderman".  I do not know if he is archiving also.  But he gets them back quickly.

On current TV show, I could use as few as 3 or 4 CF cards since post is just up the hill from our stage, but we are using 2 hard drives.  If they do not come back in time, I just copy the files from the internal drive.  I am not using DVD-RAM as an archive.

But features, I believe, are very different from TV.  TV is somewhat disposable.  Features are more permanent.  Even in the digital realm, where copies of our files are many, I still get a sense from the folks in charge that they want a physical copy of the rolls.  On my last few features, even if I was handing off CF cards to DITs, I was still turning in a DVD-RAM at the end of each day, as well as a drive will ALL files at the end of the show.

And on my last feature (and my current TV show), all digital files are being archived on linear tape.

Robert

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My present episodic is a hybrid.  It is being shot on the Red and we have a DMT on set.  If he wants a break-off,  I pass off my CF card to him mid-day.  Otherwise,  I hand him my CF card at the end of the day,  in a pelican CF card case.  It usually takes him about 6 - 8 minutes to download my material, if there isn't alot of visual material in the queue.  I often finish packing up and then collect the card from him.  I then email the production office and post the sound report .pdf.  The production likes to have the sound archived to disc as well.  After I email the sound report,  I retire and have my laptop burn a dvd-r.  After the last day of the episode,  I pop all the discs, in cases,  into a bubblewrap envelope.  They get sent off to post. Not sure if the discs are actively used,  or just kept on hand in the event of a catastrophic failure. Since it takes so much longer to ingest large files off of discs,  I am guessing they are archive only.  I am presently using the one Sandisk Extreme III 16gb card.  I found that on heavy multi track days with long takes,  it would get close to the limit of the 8gb card that I had been using.  I feel more comfortable with the 16gb.

ao

Are you charging them OT for this burning at the end of the day?  If so, doesn't it seem that they have shifted the extra time from post to you to burn this media?  I don't get why people are hating the optical so much.  It seems they want it some where in the chain for at least storage.

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how many CF cards you typically have on hand

I have 6 "sets" of cards in use.  I could probably get by with 4, but I didn't know when I started.  A set of cards is 2 CF's, one Master and one Back Up.  The cards travel in a Pelican CF card case.

do you cycle them back and forth from production to post and re-use

Yes, they are cycled back and forth through post production.  I hand off the CF Pelican case to transpo, who takes them to Telecine where the files are transferred to their server.  They prep and use the files in the same manner as they did the data on the DVD-RAM.

who purchases the cards, are they considered expendable and so forth.

Production purchased the CF cards and the Pelican CF card cases.  They own them and are considered a production asset.

Also, has there been any resistance from the studios (and this only applies if the cards are being returned and re-used) that they no longer have a stable archivable media (like tape or an optical disc) for each "sound roll" on the production.

This was a specific concern and a question that I asked our post producer.  They felt, as I do now, that we are moving beyond the concept of archiving the media for eternity.  The data resides in so many places after we hand off the media, and all the production assets are all backed up.  I keep the original files on my hard drive until the show is mixed, after that the archive is all they really need, not the original disks.

One more layer of security.  Each morning our post PA picks up the previous days CF's from Encore in Hollywood.  It's brought back to our post department and our assistant editors copy all the files to a local hard drive.  That hard drive is what is delivered to Technicolor for post editorial.  The cards are returned to me after all copies are made of my previous days work.  It sounds like a lot of work, but it's not.  It's as simple as push the card in the slot, drag the files to a folder, eject the card, hand the cards back to me.

We've got it down.

The pdf sound reports are a huge hit too...

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Are you charging them OT for this burning at the end of the day?  If so, doesn't it seem that they have shifted the extra time from post to you to burn this media?  I don't get why people are hating the optical so much.  It seems they want it some where in the chain for at least storage.

I think if properly worked out and using suitable recorder, there shouldn't be any additional time at the end of the day. If anything, the whole process should be faster because the media and data throughput are faster with CF than with optical (DVD-RAM) media. "People" don't hate optical, the forward thinking people, us, who originally pushed for file based production recording, wish to move on to a more practical method of delivering our sound. You have to remember that the transition to file based production recording that we all do and all take for granted, was the first big technological game changer that was initiated by PRODUCTION (not POST) people, it is only logical that we would be pushing for the next progression.

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I sort of  "hate optical".  I'm REALLY over burning DVDs at this point, and fortunately most gigs I'm doing now want to download on-set w/ a wrangler to production drives.  I still carry around the crate w/ the burner laptop and all the reader/drive/disk gak, but am using it less and less.

phil p

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I guess I don't see what the big deal is.  You put the machine on mirror mode and it burns during or right after the take.  I've never had to hold it's hand or turn a crank or anything - it's like magic.  How small do you want your media to be?  Remember, the "teamsters" turn this stuff in at the end of the night and as far as I'm concerned the bigger the better when it comes to that dept..  They put your career on the floor of the van at night you know.    I'm sure everyone here has a "teamsters lost/misplaced the sound" story.

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I guess I don't see what the big deal is.  You put the machine on mirror mode and it burns during or right after the take.  I've never had to hold it's hand or turn a crank or anything - it's like magic.  How small do you want your media to be?  Remember, the "teamsters" turn this stuff in at the end of the night and as far as I'm concerned the bigger the better when it comes to that dept..  They put your career on the floor of the van at night you know.    I'm sure everyone here has a "teamsters lost/misplaced the sound" story.

Speaking of one of those stories --  One time (in band camp) at the wrap of the first day (night) of a show I was on, a teamster put the sound through the drop off slot of what he thought was the transfer house (wrong slot - wrong door - wrong building) and the sound for that day was never seen or heard of again.

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I recently was on a feature shoot and was using a SD788T. I recorded on a CF as well as an external HD. The production team would dump the CF card each night to master HD that they had for the Camera also recording on CF. I kept the HD as a Master Master just in case everything went pear shaped.

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I guess I don't see what the big deal is.  You put the machine on mirror mode and it burns during or right after the take.  I've never had to hold it's hand or turn a crank or anything - it's like magic.  How small do you want your media to be?  Remember, the "teamsters" turn this stuff in at the end of the night and as far as I'm concerned the bigger the better when it comes to that dept..  They put your career on the floor of the van at night you know.    I'm sure everyone here has a "teamsters lost/misplaced the sound" story.

For me, it was the fact that on the pilot of my current show, they wanted DVD-RAM (and back-up) for each roll, and we broke at lunch.  That was 40 DVDs for a 10-day pilot.  The next 9 episodes are 63 days.  Although I'm sure I could have convinced them of no back-up, and we don't break when on Fridays or splits, that's still over 100 DVDs. 

It's very wasteful.

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I sort of  "hate optical".  I'm REALLY over burning DVDs at this point, and fortunately most gigs I'm doing now want to download on-set w/ a wrangler to production drives.  I still carry around the crate w/ the burner laptop and all the reader/drive/disk gak, but am using it less and less.

phil p

With the exception of the film commercials I do which are rare now in my market. I try not to burn a disc. My workflow on the cart is record to internal mirror to external HD give CF cards to DIT on set or send Cf cards in Pelican CF card case to post. I have 6 CF cards so I am never in a rush to get them back. On past shows they usually send them back once a week in another shipment to save on shipping. If it is a 1 day or 2 day project I keep a few pre labeled pre paid padded envelopes and just tell them to drop it in mail back to me. I find if I provide a prepaid envelope I get the card back quickly. It only costs about $1.50 so I just charge for an extra battery or two.

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On present show (RED shoot) I hand daily CF to DIT. I have 5 cards. Next morning I get card back and burn backup to DVD-R with laptop (my initiative, not requested by production, but they provide me with discs). I keep these discs in my possession until end of shoot as archive, production stores them in separate location than rest of files.  I back up my hard drive to an external drive and hand it off to audio post at end of each block of shooting. I sometimes record additional ambiances with my Zoom and either give post the SD card or burn them a CD. CF rocks. Never (fingers crossed) had any issues whatsoever with CFs.

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Regardless of actual media, I have been turning in duplicate dailies (recorded in real time on separate drives - originally DVD/DVD, then DVD/CF, and now C/CF) for several years - brings the odds of a file not being readable down to almost zero.

In solid-state mode, I have four (soon to be six) sets of 8GB CF cards in Pelican cases. Assuming a lunch-time break, 8GB is plenty of real estate. Cards recycled daily, and at end of episode, entire episode downloaded from my internal drive to external drive for audio post. If telecine needs a DVD, fine - they burn it, no time in production to prepare stuff for telecine cause they're still doing linear transfers, especially as camera is turning in recycled CFs. Works very well.

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Regardless of actual media, I have been turning in duplicate dailies (recorded in real time on separate drives - originally DVD/DVD, then DVD/CF, and now C/CF) for several years - brings the odds of a file not being readable down to almost zero.

In solid-state mode, I have four (soon to be six) sets of 8GB CF cards in Pelican cases. Assuming a lunch-time break, 8GB is plenty of real estate. Cards recycled daily, and at end of episode, entire episode downloaded from my internal drive to external drive for audio post. If telecine needs a DVD, fine - they burn it, no time in production to prepare stuff for telecine cause they're still doing linear transfers, especially as camera is turning in recycled CFs. Works very well.

Jay--you're doing this on an episodic?  Are you putting your report on the CF you send too, or is it sent via email or?

phil p

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Yes Phil - I'm a 788T guy and use Wave Agent to generate a report when I reload. The report is transferred onto both CF cards, saved on my production Mini, and also put on a thumb drive that travels with the CFs. When I dump a whole episode onto a hard drive for Audio Post, a folder of all the episode's reports goes on it. However, I'm still rather "Old School", and turn in meticulous written reports with way more info than is on the pdf report, and make damn sure the reports are copied and travel the whole workflow. I'll often have particular tracks transferred to separate cameras for dailies, and other details I think will  help. Post likes it. And yes, every "roll" has a verbal header, and the end of every take is "quoted" with double beeps :)

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I've been delivering CF for a while now, and it's worked out well. On typical gigs (mainly 5D or RED), there's a wrangler on set that I hand-deliver the card to whenever it's requested (and unless they specify, I'll wait until end of day). Since they're copying the media right there, I get the card back immediately. As a CMA procedure, I then back up on an archive hard drive and zip the files. If they aren't requested after 6 months, I delete them.

Also, last year I pulled the trigger on (2) 32 GB cards. I've been able to get through a 4-5 week indie feature without having to switch to the second card (1-4 tracks on a 744T).

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I've been delivering CF for a while now, and it's worked out well. On typical gigs (mainly 5D or RED), there's a wrangler on set that I hand-deliver the card to whenever it's requested

Thank you for the answers. Your jobs fall into the category of work, everything is file based and there is no traditional (historical) imperative for sync dailies, makes utilization of CF quite easy. What I am dealing with is the desire to un-seat the deep rooted old school ways on feature films (particularly those still shot on film...  I know, I know, not for long) where we have traditional sync dailies usually done in a facility (telecine or otherwise).

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Yes Phil - I'm a 788T guy and use Wave Agent to generate a report when I reload. The report is transferred onto both CF cards, saved on my production Mini, and also put on a thumb drive that travels with the CFs. When I dump a whole episode onto a hard drive for Audio Post, a folder of all the episode's reports goes on it. However, I'm still rather "Old School", and turn in meticulous written reports with way more info than is on the pdf report, and make damn sure the reports are copied and travel the whole workflow. I'll often have particular tracks transferred to separate cameras for dailies, and other details I think will  help. Post likes it. And yes, every "roll" has a verbal header, and the end of every take is "quoted" with double beeps :)

Very thorough, dude.  How do you make sure they keep your written reports w/ the files--do you have the office or editorial scan them?  When you say you are xferring particular tracks for particular cams, do you mean certain isos for multicam coverage (like just those actors seen on that cam)?

phil p

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Very thorough, dude.  How do you make sure they keep your written reports w/ the files--do you have the office or editorial scan them?  When you say you are xferring particular tracks for particular cams, do you mean certain isos for multicam coverage (like just those actors seen on that cam)?

phil p

Morning of day two of the first couple of episodes, call the picture editor and ask if they have received a hard or soft copy of the report (I always arrange with my post people to have the reports copied or emailed to the picture editors). I have been absolutely blessed in that even with different clients and shows, for the past ten years I've worked with virtually the same audio post team at ToddAO in Burbank, and they know that there should be a copy in front of them (dialogue editor, supervisor and re-recording mixers). Last season, new picture editor called with the typical "Hey, you didn't happen to record so and so, did you?", and I immediately knew he didn't have or wasn't looking at my reports. And yes- especially if one camera has a wide two shot with foreground action and dialogue, along with another actor in the bg looking like a little head in the crosshairs, and B camera has a close up on the little head... I'll mix the boom in the foreground with a plant on the little head for A and have telecine transfer the iso of the plant for B. Have you read my article "Two Camera Hell" in the first 695 Quarterly?

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Phil - by the way, have you taken advantage of Ruck's program to get licensed under Part 74 with the FCC? Best defense for the upcoming White Space wars...

Yours truly,

WQNJ498

P.S. When get the docs together (soon) Jeff will post the project as a thread here with appropriate links....

Jay

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