WhyOne Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 is there any need to go above 40MB/sec on the CF? based on real world performance? Nah, my two writer/readers (SoundDevices internal and SanDisk external) speed test at about 20MB/sec, though I use faster cards. 20MB/sec has no issues writing 8 24/48 files effortlessly. Jay P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyOne Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Just realized I hadn't ever tried 96kHz files, but I don't think the 788T can do much more than 20MB real world. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Phil - by the way, have you taken advantage of Ruck's program to get licensed under Part 74 with the FCC? Best defense for the upcoming White Space wars... Yours truly, WQNJ498 P.S. When get the docs together (soon) Jeff will post the project as a thread here with appropriate links.... Jay Nah, I'm not smart enough to pass those tests. I'll die a pirate! phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izen Ears Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Just to chime in, the episodic series I'm doing started with DVD-RAMs but then when it came time to reorder, I realized that it made sense to use camera dept.'s data manager and drop the DVD burning. Worked out fabulous and I don't miss the DVD-RAMs at all. Saved production some bucks too. Apparently it "adds a step" for the lab to sync this way, but it must not be that time-consuming since I haven't heard a word about it since that first comment. I've got a bunch of 4GB cards and a couple 8GB cards, a $20 reader that I loaned to the data manager. She gives the cards back to me about 15 minutes after I hand em off. It's a Red show btw. I also take the files home every night and archive, it's about 2 - 3 minutes per night and it's worth it to me to have the archive right here. (On several drives of course!) No off-site backup though, which has been worrying me lately. Dan Izen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I've never trusted DVD delivery. I have delivered commercial shoots on CDR reliably at the end of the day if needed but preferably at home with a glass of wine and some jazz. Sometimes I deliver on CF but often now I dump onto a producers laptop and keep a backup myself. Just about to record a feature with iso tracks so will rotate removable hard drives. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 CD-R and DVD-R also work fine (and are cheaper than DVD-RAM). The last couple of industrial jobs I did, the editor was fine with having me just send them the files via Drop-Box. If the files are small enough to fit on CD-R, those can absolutely be used to sync up in telecine. We did this for all of Rome for HBO (as one example). --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 I haven't delivered on DVD for a while now, on a long term project I ask production to buy a portable HD at the beginning and back up onto that, with sound reports at the end of each day. On shorter jobs, I usually buy memory sticks and invoice for them at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 A trip down memory lane reminds us that productions routinely paid us, or someone, around $10 for 30 minutes of 2 channels of audio (7 inch tape rolls). As one Gigabyte of data is about 2 track hours at industry standard 16/48, and a little less time at 24 bits, the costs of CF or SD cards, and hard drives, too, as expendables is actually a lot lower than in the sorta' recent past, and figuring inflation into the equation, really a lot cheaper. what we really are missing are sources for quantity purchases of these new expendable media -like we used to buy tape by the case, or CD's and DVD's on the spools-, we need to find industrial packed memory cards in discounted lots... Maybe like the (USB-2) thumb drives that are sold in quantities as "advertising specialties" for handouts and giveaways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 When I first had to convince Twentieth Century Fox to let me use DAT on a movie (they would not allow me to use a format that the studio had had no experience with, even though I had 5 movies I had done already) the one selling point that finally put it over was the cost savings of a 2 hour DAT vs. 4 rolls of 1/4" tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-HEAR_YOU Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 The one thing you are all forgetting is the QUALITY of the old 1/4" tape. It also has a shelf life of 25+ years. CDs, DVDs and Hard Drives are still an unknown quantity as far as archiving. As has been said in other posts " you get what you pay for". What happens is people want to buy cheaper so the manufacturer makes cheaper.....eventually quality takes a hit and then...... it ends up in tears!!! Having been a Tape Distributor for over 20 years in a past life, I have seen what happens to companies that try to "DO Cheap"! Or try and compete against a cheaper product/Format. Why do you think Quantegy/Ampex and BASF/Emtec disappeared? So don't keep asking for Cheaper, Ask for the Producers and Production Companies to buy QUALITY. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH that feels better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 The one thing you are all forgetting is the QUALITY of the old 1/4" tape. It also has a shelf life of 25+ years. CDs, DVDs and Hard Drives are still an unknown quantity as far as archiving. As has been said in other posts " you get what you pay for". What happens is people want to buy cheaper so the manufacturer makes cheaper.....eventually quality takes a hit and then...... it ends up in tears!!! Having been a Tape Distributor for over 20 years in a past life, I have seen what happens to companies that try to "DO Cheap"! Or try and compete against a cheaper product/Format. Why do you think Quantegy/Ampex and BASF/Emtec disappeared? So don't keep asking for Cheaper, Ask for the Producers and Production Companies to buy QUALITY. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH that feels better! We're actually pretty sure that burned (as opposed to pressed) CDs and DVDs DON'T have a very long shelf life, and are subject to deterioration from a number of factors, including exposure to light. The analog formats WERE more robust--much has been made of the restorability of analog tapes stored in ridiculous circumstances, and I can attest to the playability of poorly stored new LPs 33+ years after they were pressed. Digital is fragile, we know that. It's only salvation is in its cloneability --it will survive only through being copied many many times and widely dispersed. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyOne Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 It's only salvation is in its cloneability --it will survive only through being copied many many times and widely dispersed. phil p I agree. On the other hand, SanDisk is supplying CF cards in WORM format (Write Once Read Many) to Japan's law enforcement community to be used as forensic evidence media. Once written, the cards can't be re-written (which is the aging factor), and Sandisk claims the cards have a seventy to one hundred year life after writing. Jay Patterson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 On features I typically hand off CF cards at the end of the day. I always have about 6 or 8 cards on set but typically only go through one or two per day, at most. I then get these back immediately after transfer or the next day at the latest. I always have a conversation with the DIT/DMT day one on what the file structure is on the cards and which file(s) they need to pull from. I walk them through the process just in case they aren't familiar with it (and yes, they should not be a DIT/DMT if they don't know how to transfer audio files but you never know these days...) A PDF sound report is then posted/emailed to the appropriate people. I typically use Sound Devices recorders so the cards are all FAT32 formatted with the show name/daily folder. I always carry a multicard reader in my kit in case theirs craps out, gets lost, etc. In addition to the CF cards I also back up to an external drive via my laptop, just in case. I have had two instances (that I'm aware of) with corrupt files. One was from the internal drive of my 744t and one was on a CF card, but in both cases the other medium was fine. So, the backup was well worth the few minutes at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKennedy Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 For film-based projects, handing in compact flash can be a challenge as (often-times) there is no device in the telecine bay to insert the CF card or play back its media in tandem with the film. Aaton inDAW (Encore uses this) is a solution to perform this task, but is not common to most post facilities ($). The only other device I know of that will accept a compact flash and play out BWF based on Sony P3 protocol to an LTC (the equipment found in telecine bays, not "longitudinal timecode") is the Tascam HS-8. It has one fatal flaw though, it can't deal with the variety of folder structures found on the most common production audio recorders. I have tried for about a year to get them to update the software so that it will recognize files from all of the manufacturers, but I keep getting a blank response. This is probably due to the extremely limited market for this unit. As mentioned elsewhere on this forum, film shoots are becoming less common and telecine bays aren't exactly earning investments in the current market. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Palmer Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 For film-based projects, handing in compact flash can be a challenge as (often-times) there is no device in the telecine bay to insert the CF card or play back its media in tandem with the film. We are a film-based project and have no trouble with CF as deliverable media. Our Telecine process at Encore uses MTI Control Dailies, which is computer based and will see any media that is file based. We've been rotating CF cards for several months now. Please see my post earlier in this thread. PWP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted June 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 We are a film-based project and have no trouble with CF as deliverable media. Our Telecine process at Encore uses MTI Control Dailies, which is computer based and will see any media that is file based. We've been rotating CF cards for several months now. Please see my post earlier in this thread. PWP From the very beginning of our whole adventure in file-based recording (starting in 1998 with the original Deva) the few post houses that were already using a computer as the front end for all their transfer functions (Aaton In-Daw being the most common) had little or no problem integrating files into the transfer channel. This is still the case today and fortunately more and more facilities, like Encore, are doing things this way. Facilities need to realize they can't just add a $2000. Fostex machine and carry on just as they used in the 1990's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 The only other device I know of that will accept a compact flash and play out BWF based on Sony P3 protocol to an LTC (the equipment found in telecine bays, not "longitudinal timecode") is the Tascam HS-8. It has one fatal flaw though, it can't deal with the variety of folder structures found on the most common production audio recorders. I had heard that Technicolor had a unit for testing, and all they did was, copy the CF files to a hard drive, then copy them back to the CF without folders. There were no issues, provided there were no overlapping codes on the disc. However, this did cause a delay, waiting for all the takes to copy back and forth. (But much faster than DVD-RAM.) We had many similar problems with file structure issues on DVD-RAM disks in post, but all of the manufacturers fixed that pretty early on. However, woe to users who take Shoot Day #1's sound roll and then try to add to it for Shoot Day #2. I can recall some sessions that went down in flames because of timecode conflicts. This is easier now with all the non-linear dailies processes, like Bones Dailies, MTI, the Fotokem system, and a few others. None of these require playing a sound file in real-time -- they just drop the files, one at a time, into a timeline, just like an editor. This works very well for digital capture projects, and can work for film depending on the workflow. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Timan Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hi Jeff, My shows for about a year and a half have all had data wranglers, as the camera's product is also non-linear. It makes sense for picture and sound files to all be on the same drive -- if they "lose the sound" this way they are also losing the picture -- and conveniently saves me from having to negotiate for HD or CF media and set up a separate workflow for sending it all back and forth. I simply drag and drop the files onto a thumb drive and my third hands it to the wrangler at, er, "film break". The wrangler puts the files on the drive bound for post, gives the thumb drive back to the third between break and wrap, and we repeat the process at the end of the day. I still make DVD-RAMs, just so my recorders still make two copies when I press the red button, but I doubt they ever get used for anything. Other than a couple of few-day reshoots, I have seen very little of our old friend the film camera in the last year. Obviously this workflow wouldn't work for film but I'm not sure of the necessity to revolutionize the workflow for film projects at this juncture when they seem to be increasingly rarer, as does the traditional telecine process. Makes sense for a long term project like Phil's, but I'm not sure I would want go reinvent the wheel each movie with so little apparent future in the film workflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whit Norris Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hey Jeff, A Disney picture I mixed earlier this year used Technicolor as well as the feature I am on now. Marc and Phillip are correct about that they can take CF cards for a film based project. Technicolor said any media I wanted to use they could sync. I jumped at this opportunity to get out of DVD RAMS. I used a FW drive as the main and a thumb drive as a backup to send them. We rotated six drives. There was only one film break a day. Disney wanted to "Go Green" on the production so they were excited about not using DVD RAMS, plastic cases, labels, vinyl cases and so on. That was a large carbon footprint using the DVD RAMS, as the Green Coordinator pointed out to me. I am using the same setup on the current feature. The next project I want to just go with the CF cards. Another advantage for drives and cards is that on large scene and cast days I never had to be concerned about filling up a DVD RAM, which can happen quickly on those days with large track counts. Cheers, Whit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyOne Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Ladies and gentlemen, We are ushering in a new wave! We all should push for the elimination of DVDs at the beginning of each project. The answer from Post, "Sorry, but telecine can't handle CFs," should be challenged, as more and more facilities are joining the bandwagon. The list of positives is overwhelming: Greener, Cheaper, More reliable, and FASTER! The change to CF delivery has definitely been driven from the Production side, and we all should be proud..... Jay Patterson, CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyOne Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 The only other device I know of that will accept a compact flash and play out BWF based on Sony P3 protocol to an LTC (the equipment found in telecine bays, not "longitudinal timecode") is the Tascam HS-8. It has one fatal flaw though, it can't deal with the variety of folder structures found on the most common production audio recorders. -Robert Question for Robert. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my experience is that if the folder structure is limited to just one level under root, and file names limited to eight alpha/numerics, most systems will read the file. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Robert was referring to the Tascam HS-8. It's a problem with only that machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyOne Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Robert was referring to the Tascam HS-8. It's a problem with only that machine. Then what is the specific fix? Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKennedy Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Deva conforms to that standard and the HS-8 is not able to play back audio from that device. The Tascam HS-8 can "fix" a CF card to conform its file structure (I believe it's two folders deep with specific folder names like MUSIC). Running the "fix" function on CF cards works some of the time, but not reliably enough last time I checked. I will look into it again. There are ways that post-houses are managing to accept CF despite a lack of proper equipment. They may just transfer the film MOS and sync the audio in editorial. I heard from a post house that simply connects the CF card to mac/pc and burns a DVD-R to bring to the telecine process. As we leave DVD-RAMs (and optical-media in general), the telecine bays will either need to be updated with expensive equipment/software or the process will have to change. Hopefully CF reaches price-parity with DVD-RAM soon so we could hand over ownership simply (like we do with DVD-RAMs) and the owner can leave them on the shelf as an archive. Unfortunately, I haven't found any good studies demonstrating the persistence of data on a regular compact flash card (WORM looks great but nowhere to be found) but hopefully someone here has a link to some such study? I should mention, we were finally told by our Maxell source that they have discontinued 5X DVD-RAM production. We are investigating other outlets, but Panasonic discontinued their DVD-RAMs already. Limited availability will be a catalyst to move to newer media. Of course, we could have been re-using DVD-RAMs all along.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Typical! I'm gonna be saddled with over 100 useless DVD-RAM.... or a small goldmine! And I just bought a spare XLDVDRAM - Doh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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