Michael P Clark Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 I ran into countless problems with Maxell DVD-RAMS on my last show. Countless errors, everyday! Finally, after troubleshooting we determined it WAS the DVD-RAM discs, specifically Maxell brand, and not the machine. Once switched to Verbatim and Panasonic, no more troubles. I for one, will from now on, always push for HD and CF deliverable. Tried on this last one. Got them to accept CF, but the master recordings HAD to be on DVD-RAM. And then ultimately backed up to HD at end of show. Strange. I complied. Had no idea how long it would take to dump just under 500G of data from a Deva!! Yikes! External HD master deliverable, from now on....I hope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 I suspect, it won't be long that we will just send our files up to the cloud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyOne Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hopefully CF reaches price-parity with DVD-RAM soon so we could hand over ownership simply (like we do with DVD-RAMs) and the owner can leave them on the shelf as an archive. Unfortunately, I haven't found any good studies demonstrating the persistence of data on a regular compact flash card (WORM looks great but nowhere to be found) but hopefully someone here has a link to some such study? Robert, Sandisk now has their pitch up on their sit for WORM SD, I'll bet a CF version isn't too long off: http://www.sandisk.com/business-solutions/sd-worm/sd-worm-card Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKennedy Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Interesting page on WORM, though I have a few concerns for our market: Price (I expect a high price-per-GB since it is intended for professionals/law enforcement) Capacity (at least initially, the press release a year ago said only 1GB cards were available) Compatibility (requires WORM-compatible firmware) Availability (CF version not announced) While hardware manufacturers could most likely produce firmware updates, it might not be within the interest of smaller manufacturers to do so (especially when they could sell a new device with that feature). It does seem like an excellent solution and I hope they reach widespread use and mass production makes them cheap and readily available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnewton Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Anyone using SD cards as deliverables or backups? seems like it's only a matter of time. I know there are technical reasons why CF are more reliable (or so I'm told) but is there any good reason we couldn't give DIT or post some variety of SD card? the price seems right for sure. Opinions? chris Newton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 That's all fine and dandy...... But, NOT using DVD-Rams will in the end cost me over $3,000 in yearly income at a time when our gear is STILL expensive, and rates are a battle for many. Smart business.... I think not..... I think this is a path of modernization, but like the economy, one in which the overall benefit is as always, lost wages.... As for bad discs, i have had like two in all the hundreds and hundreds I have used.... And those were exposed during formatting... not a deal breaker in my book.. Maxells, I've used I don't know how many.... Hey I saw a Ferrari broke down today on the highway... Shit happens.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 ...Hey I saw a Ferrari broke down today on the highway... Shit happens.... Good chuckle. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 That's all fine and dandy...... But, NOT using DVD-Rams will in the end cost me over $3,000 in yearly income To clarify, is that loss of "over $3000. in yearly income" come from not selling DVD-RAM discs to the production company? I'm confused. I do remember the big debates that went on in the past when we first starting using Cart Power supplies (and couldn't honestly continue to charge for the disposable batteries we had been using). Also, when DAT first came in and everyone had gotten used to selling the production 4 or 5 rolls of 1/4" tape a day (and the mark-up/profit we made) and DAT cam along with a 2 hour cassette for $8.00. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 To clarify, is that loss of "over $3000. in yearly income" come from not selling DVD-RAM discs to the production company? I'm confused. I do remember the big debates that went on in the past when we first starting using Cart Power supplies (and couldn't honestly continue to charge for the disposable batteries we had been using). Also, when DAT first came in and everyone had gotten used to selling the production 4 or 5 rolls of 1/4" tape a day (and the mark-up/profit we made) and DAT cam along with a 2 hour cassette for $8.00. Yes. The reality is... that is the case... Pretty soon we will only be paid for gear, and time... Our expendables will probably be next to vanish... then we'll be buying and supplying those too... Someone is probably laughing saying, "hell, I already do!!" As small businesses we (did) make some money from re-sale of batteries and stock. Was it much, no... but it all adds up to lost income... It's just a fact.. Are there by-products like a better environment? Probably... Or better yet... yes. Just ask the RIGHT side of the political aisle about the benefits or losses due to environmental constraints placed on corporations, and the loss of profits because of it... I think it's the same issue on a micro scale. You do in the long run gain, but for now... you loose... Convenience?.... Well, I'll take the +$3 grand.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmgoodin Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 Robert, Sandisk now has their pitch up on their sit for WORM SD, I'll bet a CF version isn't too long off: http://www.sandisk.c...rm/sd-worm-card Jay While it could be used as a deliverable by copying files to it from your internal hard drive, WORM devices can't be used for original recording of BWF files. Because of the way Wave files are recorded, the recorder must go back and update the file's head chunks at the end of the recording with iXML and bext data that has the lengths of the recording updated. Since there is no way to overwrite data on a WORM file this may make it impossible using current methodology for digital recording of RIFF files. They may be able to work out some new way in firmware to skip an area of WORM then return and write out that segment at the end in a reserved but unwritten area, but most operating systems file managers don't work that way now. In fact most recorders now continually update the file header every few seconds in order to preserve a recording in case of power failure or system crash. You would lose this saftey feature if you are writing to WORM drive where the file's length must be written in the header and can only be written ONCE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Quinn Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 I have to say I am with afewmoreyears on this, I am in no hurry to give up the income (small amount of markup) I get from reselling DVD RAM Disks .We get less and less for our equipment which has to be paid for insured and maintained and replaced often enough to make it very hard to get a profit from our investment. I do not have post asking me for CF cards and an sure they are in no hurry to loose the income they make from they're Fostex DV40 rental.I know that we as sound folk like to keep pushing the envelope but I would also like to hold on to any income stream I can. Everything goes up but wages in the sound world. Just my tupence worth Best John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) The Flash Cards (CF, SD, etc) are the expendables, the new expendables. buy 'em at discounts, and sell them to the production. This should cover you until we begin transmitting the files... Edited June 21, 2011 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 This question spans both CF as deliverable and Labels and Custom Forms topics. What have people been using to label the CF card directly? I know about the various cases including the little plastic box a CF card typically comes in, but what about the card itself? The issue, of course, is that the card will be used and re-used many times so the label, whatever that might be that is on the card, has to be of the erasable type or easily removable or something. There is also the concern that affixing any label material to the card could alter its physical size and possibly cause a jam in the card slot - reader. Any experience with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Palmer Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 This question spans both CF as deliverable and Labels and Custom Forms topics. What have people been using to label the CF card directly? I know about the various cases including the little plastic box a CF card typically comes in, but what about the card itself? The issue, of course, is that the card will be used and re-used many times so the label, whatever that might be that is on the card, has to be of the erasable type or easily removable or something. There is also the concern that affixing any label material to the card could alter its physical size and possibly cause a jam in the card slot - reader. Any experience with this? I label both the CF card case and each CF card with a P-Touch label. It appears to no effect the size or jam issue in either machine I use. There is a bit of tolerance in both the DEVA and Sound Devices machines. The post facility, in our case Encore, has put their bar code label on the case and each card as well. This allows for tracking both in and out of the facility as well as to what was is or was on the card last time through. It's been working quite well for the last few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 ...the card will be used and re-used many times so the label, whatever that might be that is on the card, has to be of the erasable type or easily removable I have just answered my own question. I found some Avery Erasable labels which if cut to the appropriate size will work great. I also found that the label that is on the backside (other side from the SanDisk product label) is removable, exposing a flat recessed surface which accepts the Avery label nicely. I think this arrangement will not pose any problems in terms of increasing the thickness of the card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 My cards have "sound #1" through "sound #8" on a small p-touch on the back. Occasionally they'll show up with a bar code from post stuck to them, which I pull off. My outer case just has my name and phone number on it. I rubber band the sound report to that, which goes with the camera drives. So I currently use no daily lablels or envelopes of any kind. It's liberating. And I have never lost a flash card (touch wood). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McL Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Gleefully in process of going to CF delivery on the 35mm project I start soon. Post Supervisor says OK, but I'm cautiously waiting for a shoe... In the meantime, moved the DVD burner off the cart, just to see how it felt: 'twas good. Good news is -- based upon this thread -- Technicolor is our lab. Very glad to have all your good experience behind me as I make the pitch. Thanks, y'all, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 We have done something a little different on the last few shows. I burn a DVD-R at lunch break-off and give it to camera when we return after lunch. At wrap I hand in a box with a blank DVD and a flash drive with everything recorded after lunch. The lab burns the flash drive to DVD. This gets us out of burning at wrap. Production really doesn't like paying the cost of burn time at wrap or the cost of DVD ram discs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted July 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 We have done something a little different on the last few shows. I burn a DVD-R at lunch break-off and give it to camera when we return after lunch. At wrap I hand in a box with a blank DVD and a flash drive with everything recorded after lunch. The lab burns the flash drive to DVD. This gets us out of burning at wrap. Production really doesn't like paying the cost of burn time at wrap or the cost of DVD ram discs. Why would there be a "burn time" at wrap? I am not in favor of DVDs as a deliverable either and I am very pleased to see that we may be moving faster than I thought towards CF --- I've never had a problem with the time factor with a DVD... what's the deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I'm on a pilot where I am delivering all my files on CF cards. I am using the same methodology that Phil Palmer began using last season on Glee. The best part about this is there is no need to be concerned that you'll reach your 4.7Gb of DVD-Ram space and need to reload, format etc. No labeling necessary. Peace of mind. I mirror to one "Master" CF card and 1 "Back-up" that fit securely into a Pelican case and off they go. Post recycles them to me, the next day. It simple and efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bollard Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I dual record to CF on my 788 with the CF being the deliverable and the hdd being one of the many backups that I make. Jeff Initially I was labeling the CF cards but the added thickness resulted in some comments coming back from post. I now have a permanent ID code on the back of the card that becomes the logging/roll reference that goes on the sound report and the physical book out and in log. I bought a bunch of CF card cases (pelican) that the cards travel back and forth on; holds up to 4 cards so plenty of space. These I mark and secure with fluro camera tape. I certainly second the comment that the cost of everything is going up except sound (crew generally) wages and equip hire. Really need to be inventive and ready to supply additional gear; and be ready to sell it as a necessary item to production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted July 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Initially I was labeling the CF cards but the added thickness resulted in some comments coming back from post. I haven't done it yet, deliver on CF, but you can tell I'm getting myself (happily) ready to do so. I was concerned about the labeling thing and the way I have approached it to avoid any problem of added thickness, is to remove the factory label that is on the back (?) of the CF card. This then provides a recessed flat metal surface to put an erasable label (cut from standard Avery). I be being overly cautious but this method makes the CF card identical to that which the factory supplies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 For me, since the CF cards are being recycled on a daily basis, I have just resorted to a label with the CF card number only. My written or if you prefer computer generated Sound Report notes which CF card # I'm using. For example CF 1A and Back-up 1B, Roll # 004. I have 6 sets of cards (12 total) in the pelican cases. If you are sending your cards into a place like Encore, as Phil noted, they will affix a barcode label that tracks it very efficiently from their end. When I get the returned CF card, I copy it's data to an external hard drive before they are re-formatted in the Deva. This is just an insurance clone for my sense of ease only. I am thrilled that I'm out of the label printing business. I had labels for the CD jewel cases, labels for the large envelopes containing the media for breaks, labels on the DVD-Rams (after mirroring) -- yes I know that Jeff considers this a no, no. But I successfully labeled thousands of DVD-Rams with never a problem reported by the transfer facility, or post sound editorial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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