First amendment issue... (:

[studiomprd]

OK, welcome to the new home of this discussion...

Although Oleg is in a different country,  I suspect some clarification might be in order:

Oleg has pretty much the right to say what ever he wants.  Note: I say 'pretty much' because there are some reasonable limits on free speech, such as screaming "FIRE" in a crowded place, or libeling folks...

The thing is, that that first amendment right does not necessarily exist on JW's forum.  Working in radio on "talk stations", folks would also keep claiming their "free speech" rights, but the fact is that on my radio station, I am the only one with complete "freedom of speech" (subject to those reasonable limitations), and if listeners or "callers" want similar "free speech", they are welcome to start their own radio stations...  The same protocol would apply to Internet discussion forums!  Thus Oleg's (or anyone's, including my) rights to speak on this forum are under the restrictions of our host.

[Steve Joachim]

+1

You are only guaranteed that your right to speak freely will not be impinged by the government. You are not guaranteed the right to say anything you want to anybody without  consequences. This falls more in to the right of free assembly where, we all get to choose who we do and do not wish to associate with. No matter how smart or clever you might be, if your going to be a boor, the chances are, at some point, folks in any social circle are going to eventually tire of you.

[stacysound]

I can confirm that the block user function on this group works well

[John Blankenship]

Now we need to update our email SPAM filters.  I've already gotten one nasty message from the aforementioned offender, besmirching both me and our illustrious host (I appreciate being put in good company).

It'll be refreshing to once again recommend quality vendors without all the nastiness ensuing.  I like to save a buck as much as anyone else, but I also appreciate having reliable resources to call upon.

[studiomprd]

" recommend quality vendors without all the nastiness ensuing. "

wasn't there a guy on LA TV at night, Crazy Gideon, who kept saying that anyone "is crazy if you buy from anyone but me" ??

Seems Oleg has the same belief...

[Marc Wielage]

I would actually stick up for Oleg and say that I find his comments interesting, and I just apply an "Oleg filter" if and when he loses his temper.

Maybe Jeff could consider a "three strikes" policy, where people are given at least a second chance after a warning or two when they get abusive (deliberately or inadvertently).

I think sometimes, Oleg's passion comes off as bluster and anger, but the guy does have some good experience and has an interesting perspective on the sound business (particularly in his part of the world). I also think sometimes his command of English sometimes gets him in trouble (and no question, he probably speaks four or five foreign languages much better than I can speak Hebrew).

Maybe also Jeff can consider clarifying the rules in terms of what constitutes abuse, how users should avoid personal insults in messages, and so on.

Just a suggestion.  Now hiding... 

--Marc W.

[Jeff Wexler]

Maybe also Jeff can consider clarifying the rules in terms of what constitutes abuse, how users should avoid personal insults in messages, and so on.

--Marc W.

I don't think any "clarification" of "rules" is really necessary, or even possible, since there are no rules specific to this forum. Also, we have over 3000 members and have had this forum up and running since 2006 and Oleg is the only person who has ever broken the rules, and done so repeatedly over a long period of time. The rules I am referring to are just the decent, common sense rules of discourse and civility. For months I made generous allowances for Oleg's colorful speech, his command of the English language, and his unique take on the world of sound and its inhabitants. Eric has said that Oleg was kicked out because he had a "potty mouth" and certainly the liberal use of profanity in his posts was an issue (but tolerable since he was the only one here speakling that way). It was the rest of the "profanity" and abuse that finally got to me and others. Almost every single post, even the ones with valuable and insightful information, had to contain calling someone "stupid" or a "moron" or an "idiot", or worse yet, making false claims of deception, greed and corruption by the individuals or companies that we deal with everyday.

Oleg was warned, quite gently at first and later more sternly, to clean up his act, and at times he was well behaved. Finally, there really was no other course than to ban him from this group.

I believe I was as tolerant as anyone could be, allowing Oleg to be Oleg for as long as I could. Any other moderator would have banned him based on the profanity alone. There is even an automatic setting built into this forum that would have banned Oleg automatically after the 10th or 15th time he used the word "sh*t" in his posts. I am no prude and I have a rather colorful speech myself, but not here on this forum.

[justanross]

Again there is a block member function.

And you don't actually need to respond to any of his posts.  It actually very easy to do on here.  I do it with senator all the time.  His posts are just as useless as Olegs, he's just more polite about it.

[old school]

I make no secret of the fact that I think Oleg was a negative to this otherwise positive group. Good riddance IMO. Jeff, you bent over backwards to reign in his unreasonable rants against individuals in posts here and private emails to members. I think the only sad thing is that he didn't get it. Whatever knowledge he has is wasted when the delivery method alienates the other members. Justin doesn't like Senator Mike whose mantra annoyed many, but Mike never attacked anyone as far as I remember. I think we all can do a better job if we first think, then type, read and edit our posts before we hit send. I include myself and many others in that advise. BTW, I think this has zero to do w the 1st amendment and all to do with being a good leader who makes the necessary decisions to lead the group. I say "Well done Jeff"

CrewC

[afewmoreyears]

Again there is a block member function.

And you don't actually need to respond to any of his posts.  It actually very easy to do on here.  I do it with senator all the time.  His posts are just as useless as Olegs, he's just more polite about it.

The Senator Mike is not even remotely close.... I never received evil and vial emails concerning my wife of all things from the Senator... his comments are absolutely tongue and cheek... I have never been offended by them... The other gentleman was incredibly abusive, vial and through the internet of all things, threatening... 

I am in total agreement with Jeff on this one. NOBODY gave more chances, for a longer period of time, and tried for what, a year or more to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. Jeeze, what more could he of done... 

  Not that it matters to anyone here, but I left because of him and will do so again if I ever see him again on this site... Just his name made me ill when I saw it... His abuse to others and myself is well documented.

  To be fair, yes I got into it with him on more than a few occasions, and yes stooped to his level. But, that being said it was in defense of others and myself.

It is a shame, because he is a very knowledgeable person with much to offer, but his  ability to  communicate with others in a civil manner were absolutely non existent.. I never saw or dealt with anyone like that in my life... he had no conscience... at all.

I just could not understand his anger directed at others or the ability to just be polite to people and places of business.

  Thank you Jeff...

[justanross]

I understand why it was done.  But I think we all take this site and our jobs a little to serious at times.  C'mon people we are not saving lives here.

Senator is passive aggressive.  That counts as being rude in my books.

[John Blankenship]

Justan,

I find myself amused at the irony of the contrast between your stance for allowing a person who spews vitriol and hate to continue to do so, in contrast to your signature that contains Einstein's quote invoking the spirit of one of the most noted men of peace and harmony of all time.

[Jeff Wexler]

What John B. said...  big time. Now if Oleg had ever read Justan's signature we might not be where we are today.

[Jon Gilbert]

And if Justan had ever read the emails Oleg had sent to some of us he might have a different point of view......

Thanks Jeff.

[Mirror]

LOUD NOISES!

I love lamp.

[justanross]

Justan,

I find myself amused at the irony of the contrast between your stance for allowing a person who spews vitriol and hate to continue to do so, in contrast to your signature that contains Einstein's quote invoking the spirit of one of the most noted men of peace and harmony of all time.

I know, I'm bad at making my points clear on this Internet thingy. 

Basically, I respect what you are all saying.  Yes Jeff gave him many chances but I still feel members could just easily block him.

I know earlier I said his posts were useless.  But I actually got a lot of useful information from him.  One time he pointed out these cheap 12v lithium batteries.  I bought some to try them out and they have been great.

[justanross]

And if Justan had ever read the emails Oleg had sent to some of us he might have a different point of view......

Thanks Jeff.

That is true I have never received angry emails from him.

[Marc Wielage]

Oleg was warned, quite gently at first and later more sternly, to clean up his act, and at times he was well behaved. Finally, there really was no other course than to ban him from this group.

I gotcha, Jeff. I don't doubt you gave him a few chances.

People have had bad manners on the internet practically since the day the Net was invented. I was on CompuServe starting in 1981 (and was a Sysop for 15 years there), and in all that time, I think we had to throw out maybe five people -- some of whom made physical threats of violence, used incredibly foul language, and were real rabble-rousers. So there is a line that gets crossed, and at some point you gotta say "enough."

A lot of people (especially newcomers to the net) don't get that what you can say in private conversation rarely works in an online situation. One subtle, sarcastic comment might be completely misinterpreted as a grievous insult, and people will go right off the deep end. As to Senator Mike: what a lot of people don't see in him is, in person, he's grinning and chuckling while he's telling you to "read the F'in' manual," and most of the time, he's right. Some of that, you have to read into his posts and just take it knowing his sense of humor.

The thing that drove me crazy about Oleg was how he was always convinced that many specialist American location sound dealers and manufacturers were involved in a gigantic conspiracy to screw users. I've had the exact opposite experience -- the people at Coffey, LSC, even Trew have all gone out of their way to help on quite a few occasions (especially Coffey), as have manufacturers like Zaxcom, PSC and Lectro. I never felt that any of those companies were out of line with their prices. Stuff costs what it costs. If you don't like it, you can always buy it somewhere else. No big deal.

--Marc W.

[Richard Ragon]

I call Oleg my 'Internet stalker'.  The guy actually tracked my IP address..  It was kind of creepy.  I just chose not to friend him on FaceBook, and stay away.  No doubt he was stalking more then just me, but others as well.

-Richard

[RPSharman]

I think Oleg just loves to get a rise out of people, and he did that very regularly.  He did cross the line, all too often, but the only private communication I ever got from him was positive in nature.  He is clearly a little nuts, and I do not miss his presence here, but we must remember people are often misunderstood.  Jeff has every right to ban people from this group who are disruptive to the mood of this very positive community, and Oleg was certainly that.

It seems unlikely, but perhaps being banned here will create an opportunity for him to change his outlook a bit.

Robert

[Philip Perkins]

I got private emails, PMs etc from Oleg as described.  Oleg likes yanking people's chains.  If the person at the other end of the chain is an American (esp Hollywood) sound mixer, so much the better.  I'm sure he came by the chip on his shoulder through some hard knocks and working with some people who weren't very nice to him.  I hope he can teach himself to be less angry and reactive and return to this forum some day.

phil p

[Tom Visser]

Unless Oleg sleeps with your wife or spits in your soup, I don't see any reason to ban him entirely.  Maybe we can set up a "penalty box" area, people can choose to ignore repeat offenders.  I'm have a sneaking suspicion that Oleg is really just JW's alter ego anyways (anyone see Fight Club?) <;-)

hey, did I just invent the winking party hat?  or was that already established?  ...and I'll be keeping my soup close by...

[afewmoreyears]

He's been in the box for what, a year Tom?  Enough is enough... really now... 

  Even Jeff's alter ego has more class than that, you should apologize to his alter ego... that was low 

[Tom Visser]

He's been in the box for what, a year Tom?  Enough is enough... really now...

And curious, did you choose to ignore him?  It is a feature built into the forum I believe - haven't tried it myself.  I like to make a parallel to a public space... if someone was being obnoxious in the room you are in, would you move to another room or would you throw him out the window?  (or just filter him out completely like internet forums allow).  If you decide to throw him out, then you are setting a standard of exclusivity in the space - which may be justified, if one feels JW sound is a private club.  I certainly don't feel it is a "completely open public" general interest internet forum, but on the other hand, it's not a "member's only" type of thing either.  I don't say that my opinion is more valid than anyone else's, I'm just stating my opinion.

It is obviously justified to throw out people who throw slurs based on race, religion, sexual orientation, so how does "anti-hollywood" and "people who have enough money to buy professional equipment and don't appreciate Zoom recorders" fit into this context?  I think some of it is overreaction / sensitivity, and some of it is probably a bit of a gray area.

[Jan McL]

I'm glad he's gone. Know it can't have been an easy decision, Jeff; I support you in it.

Even 'ignore' here allows his replies to posts to which I'm subscribed to come through to my email. Was just about to create an email filter, but now guess I don't have to.

While he's never gotten me in his sights, he took to PM'ing me on Facebook often, and we are now unfriended there.

I left RAMPS in part due to his omnipresence, even with newsgroup filters engaged.

This is not a private club, but I found his participation here unsettling, even 'ignored', his name would show up on posts and it never failed to give me a moment of unease that I'm glad not to experience every day.

Thanks, Jeff.

-- Jan