dominiquegreffard Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 hi guys, i m starting a project with a arri alexa camera and they want to run it at 24 frame rate. i record on a sound devices 744t. every project so far i did was 23.976. i presume that i should set my recorder at 24 as well. apparently post could deal with any frame rate choice but i rather run the optimal way, any toughts on that? thanks, Dominique Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 I would double-check via email (so you have written proof) if they really want true 24 or 23.98 - express that 24 is very uncommon in HD, and it concerns you to record something out of the ordinary. If they really want 24, then suggest a quick work-flow test before the shoot. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 hi guys, i m starting a project with a arri alexa camera and they want to run it at 24 frame rate. i record on a sound devices 744t. every project so far i did was 23.976. i presume that i should set my recorder at 24 as well. apparently post could deal with any frame rate choice but i rather run the optimal way, any toughts on that? thanks, Dominique Not that it answers your question but the audio on the Alexa is about the best you'll find on a camera, 24/48 line level only. A couple of good wireless hops to camera or a hard wire feed will cover you as a just in case. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominiquegreffard Posted June 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 Not that it answers your question but the audio on the Alexa is about the best you'll find on a camera, 24/48 line level only. A couple of good wireless hops to camera or a hard wire feed will cover you as a just in case. Eric ok guys, thanks for the input.. i just spoke with the 1st ass cam guy and he told me that it is quite common to be rolling 24 with alexa and that i should roll 24 as well. he s gonna bring the laptop with finalcut so we can run a quick test tomorrow morning. i m thinking a 2 min sync test with start middle and final slate clapping? i never did this b4 so i m not sure exacly how should i do this.. and eric, that s good to know about the sound on alexa. i was kinda presuming the opposite because of the weird input format (5 pin xlr) and frontal placement. never to judge a book by it s cover they say.. thanks again, Dom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 ok guys, thanks for the input.. i just spoke with the 1st ass cam guy Is he a good AC or just a ASS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominiquegreffard Posted June 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 Is he a good AC or just a ASS haha.. i was meaning assistant.. sorry guillaume.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 haha.. i was meaning assistant.. sorry guillaume.. A good friend of mine who was the Associate Producer on a movie had his chair back altered, by someone, so it read ASS PROD. He thought it was funny and left it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 ok guys, thanks for the input.. i just spoke with the 1st ass cam guy and he told me that it is quite common to be rolling 24 with alexa and that i should roll 24 as well. he s gonna bring the laptop with finalcut so we can run a quick test tomorrow morning. i m thinking a 2 min sync test with start middle and final slate clapping? That would work. In fact, go for five minutes if you can. If it doesn't sync up at the end, it'll be at least a 5-6 frame error, which will be easy to see (and hear). If you're in Europe, it's possible they are shooting 24.00fps, and that is an option for the camera. On almost all American shoots, 23.976 is the normal setting, but the crew often refers to it as "24," confusing many people. When in doubt, confirm the choice of timecode and frame-rate with the editor and get it in writing, even if it's just an email. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 ok guys, thanks for the input.. i just spoke with the 1st ass cam guy and he told me that it is quite common to be rolling 24 with alexa and that i should roll 24 as well. he s gonna bring the laptop with finalcut so we can run a quick test tomorrow morning. i m thinking a 2 min sync test with start middle and final slate clapping? i never did this b4 so i m not sure exacly how should i do this.. and eric, that s good to know about the sound on alexa. i was kinda presuming the opposite because of the weird input format (5 pin xlr) and frontal placement. never to judge a book by it s cover they say.. thanks again, Dom The 5 pin input connector is a bit strange but it is a 2 channel connection and it's easy to make a short 2 channel jumper cable to feed the camera. The pin connections for the 5 pin are: 1. ground, 2. Left +, 3. Left -, 4. Right +, 5. Right -. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Quinn Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 Dominique check with post production in writing .Your camera assistant is most likely wrong and there will be no point quoting him/her when the shit hits the fan. PS I have never been asked in the UK (Europe)to record anything but 25fps no matter what format the camera is (film-tape-file) .The only exception has been for US based projects working over here.I am working on a pilot at the moment which is being shot on a Sony F3 with a separate CF recorder (nano flash type thing) at the end of each shot the 1st likes to call out "check the chip".Funny the first few times but starting to ware a bit thin now as we all hang around waiting for every shot to be checked.I wonder how much money is really being saved overtime/film stock who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 23.976 in USA is the way I've always recorded to my Deva. The sound is good on the Alexa. Line level like Eric says. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 No 24 fps TC for me unless I get it in writing. Cover yourself. I don't care what the AC's test says--the AC is not the editor. Maybe write the PM or producer and apologize for bugging them but 24 fps TC is very non-standard in the USA and you want to make sure that's what they want. There is a good Alexa "simulator" at http://www.arridigital.com/simulator/index.html so you can see how to run the camera menus yourself, and see that there is a clear choice between 23.98 and 24 fps. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 " i presume that i should set my recorder " that would be a bad idea, never presume or assume... as Robert notes: Get it in writing and test it. I would double-check via email (so you have written proof) if they really want true 24 or 23.98 - express that 24 is very uncommon in HD, and it concerns you to record something out of the ordinary. If they really want 24, then suggest a quick work-flow test before the shoot. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyOne Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 Dominique! NEVER trust the word of another crew member on frame rate, especially on 24 fps with an HD camera, regardless of how sure they are. An unusable frame rate can hurt your rep. Insist on getting the frame rate from someone higher on the food chain than yourself, and in writing. Asking these questions confirms ones professionalism. Fact is (as pointed out by some of the posters above) that ACTUAL 24fps, as opposed to 23.976fps for a Digital Cinema camera, is almost unheard of - period. GET IT IN WRITING! Jay Patterson, CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Waelder Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 I've rolled 24 fps on a project. And, yes, I do mean 24.000 fps, not 23.976. When instructed to set my TC clock at 24, I asked for confirmation and was careful to explain that this frame rate is unusual. Production reconfirmed the 24 fps rate. Editing was to be completed in France. I understand that this is not an unusual rate for projects intended for the U.S. market but completed in France. Just passing on that there are circumstances where 24 might really be the rate requested. But it is good to be quite certain. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominiquegreffard Posted June 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 hey guys, thanks for your concerns. yeah i have it in email form from my producer from them requesting me to roll 24fps. i did a test this morning before we started filming and it worked like a charm. the camera synced normally and the audio and scratch strack sound corresponded perfecly on final cut. yeah i was a little surprised when they asked me to roll 24.. but so far so good. i requested a technical reference guideline from post but never had it and got the news about the 24fps two days b4 shoot... not ideal i know.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Davies Amps CAS Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 >>PS I have never been asked in the UK (Europe)to record anything but 25fps no matter what format the camera is (film-tape-file) .<< I've just done two UK features with the Alexa and on both occasions post said they didn't mind if I had the recorder on 24 OR 25 as long as they knew. In both instances the cam ran at 24. Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Quinn Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 Hi Malcolm That really goes to proves there is an exception to every rule but just checking did you run your HD Recorder at 24 or 25 not quite sure from your post .I understand that the camera dept wanted to run 24 as 35mm film cameras do that and film projectors run at that speed.. Best John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 " requesting me to roll 24fps. " just to be sure, keep in mind that to many folks 23.976 is 24 FPS... this can often be the problem make certain in writing they really mean 24.000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Waldron Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 " requesting me to roll 24fps. " just to be sure, keep in mind that to many folks 23.976 is 24 FPS... this can often be the problem make certain in writing they really mean 24.000 Yes, break it down Senator. "What we have HERE.. is a failure to communicate." To editors.. 23.976 is 24 FPS .. and it is. Ask an editor to give you one second of something on a 23.9 timeline, they give 24 frames. Nobody cuts fractions of frames. I think when asking what FPS the project is going to be at, or what you should set your TC at, you should also ask the framerate. Two different questions. They might look at you like you are from another planet, but get the answer to both questions. 1. How many frames per second are you shooting? 2. What frame-rate are you shooting/camera? This will be a double CYA for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Davies Amps CAS Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Hi Malcolm That really goes to proves there is an exception to every rule but just checking did you run your HD Recorder at 24 or 25 not quite sure from your post .I understand that the camera dept wanted to run 24 as 35mm film cameras do that and film projectors run at that speed.. Best John I ran at 25, the Alexa's frame rate was set to 24. It does depend on the final destination of the film as to the camera speed. The usual norm is for cinema release it will be 24, or for TV it will be 25. Ask the editor what he/she wants and if you are paranoid then do what the senator suggests and get it in writing. (I've never had to do this in well over 40 years.) Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 FPS: 24 (24.000), 25, and 30 (30.000) are all "real time or integer speeds; 23.976 and 29.97 are pulled down (by .1%), non-integer speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Quinn Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Hi Malcolm I am with you on this as I said I have never had any need in the UK to run at any other frame rate other than 25fps unless I was working for a US company. But I wonder if the Alexi is running at 24 fps and we feed a mix track to it,which knowing the Alexi should be totally useable and we also record on our Fostex/Deva/788 etc at 25 fps will this cause post any headaches further down the line.It is just a thought but one that might need addressing. Best John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Quinn Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Hi Malcolm I am with you on this as I said I have never had any need in the UK to run at any other frame rate other than 25fps unless I was working for a US company. But I wonder if the Alexi is running at 24 fps and we feed a mix track to it,which knowing the Alexi should be totally useable and we also record on our Fostex/Deva/788 etc at 25 fps will this cause post any headaches further down the line.It is just a thought but one that might need addressing. Best John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) Great thread. I keep running into DPs with RED cameras who insist on running 24FPS. TRUE 24, not 23.976. After reading this, and other threads related to timecode, I'd like to know if I understand your posts correctly: Recording in HD at TRUE 24 is in fact uncommon in the US, and true 24fps must be pulled down .1% for NTSC release anyway, so it is best (and common) practice to record in the field in HD at a non-integer speed of 23.976 or equivalent, with a matching sound sample rate of 48kHz. The above point indicates that my field sound sampling rate can have two options: Without timecode (slate only - rare, I know) the sample rate can be 48kHz, which does not need to be pulled down in order to match the appropriate non-integer frame rate the video will wind up in, since the true 24fps noted above will be pulled down to 23.976 per NTSC standards in post. In this case, since the sound files would not be time stamped with TC, then it would be my responsibility to clarify with the post house that after their video pulldown, they can simply import the sound files into the Avid or equivalent without a .1% audio pulldown. When timecode is used and production wants to record at TRUE 24FPS HD (not film), then my best option for recording in the field regarding sample rate is 48.048kHz and to use actual 24fps timecode so that in post, the audio is pulled down .1% to become 48kHz since it is TC stamped, thereby matching the 23.976 pulled down frame rate of the previously 24fps video. Again, it is my responsibility to confirm with post house (through production) that this is in fact the way they intend their workflow to occur. As a note, it occurs to me that the Sound Devices 552 manual clearly states, "Sound Devices recommends 48 kHz sampling rate for all 552 production applications." (see pg. 23 of SD 552 manual, bottom of page under 'Sampling Rate'). The SD 552 also does not give the 48.048 kHz sampling rate option. It only allows the following sampling rates to be recorded: 44.1, 48, 88.2 & 96 kHz. Therefore, if I am using a primary digital recorder, (744t for example), and shooting true 24fps per production's request, the sampling rate of 48.048 on the 744t will in fact be a different sample rate from the backup recording on the SD 522, creating two separate sample rates for the files recorded in the field. This is not insignificant for the post house, and so I must let them know if they ever wind up using backup files. So please let me know if I am even remotely close on this, and I'll update my post with any corrections you guys/gals make so as not to confuse any readers that stumble upon this later. Thanks in advance for your time! Edited December 26, 2011 by Toy Robot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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