Jump to content
Dennis Kersten

Filenames without slate/scene/take/

Recommended Posts

Is it a problem to have filenames without the slate/scene/take info?

I sold my 744T and upgraded to the sonosax sx-r4. With the sonosax it's not possible to change filenames as it creates unique filenames itself. The only way to note slate/scene/take is writing it in the metadata. I heard a editor complaining once about all the files not having scene/slate and take numbers (sonosax does this and the cantar also, don't know about other recorders). Is this really a problem?? How do you deliver your files with or without slate/scene/take in the filename?

For example:

SL055SC007T01 slate 55 / scene 7 / take 1

instead off:

SX00012 slate 55 / scene 7 / take 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it a problem to have filenames without the slate/scene/take info?

I sold my 744T and upgraded to the sonosax sx-r4. With the sonosax it's not possible to change filenames as it creates unique filenames itself. The only way to note slate/scene/take is writing it in the metadata. I heard a editor complaining once about all the files not having scene/slate and take numbers (sonosax does this and the cantar also, don't know about other recorders). Is this really a problem?? How do you deliver your files with or without slate/scene/take in the filename?

I thought about this consequence as well when considering a R4. Please keep us informed on your progress. Also, are you using V4.0 of the firmware? Big changes have been made.

john

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sort of with the editor in this case, especially as it is a feature offered by most all of the competition. Sonosax should seriously consider changing their firmware.

I deliver using Tape_Scene_Take_XXX.wav where Tape is normally the date, unless I manually rename my working folder to something else and XXX is a unique index number (incremental) that my recorder automatically creates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it a problem to have filenames without the slate/scene/take info?

I think maybe the Sound Devices recorders are the only ones that have the file name be scene and take numbers. The Deva doesn't do it this way, the Cantar doesn't do it, Fostex and Sonosax either. This has been discussed at great length here and elsewhere. I have delivered files with filenames that are NOT scene and take for the last 22 movies and it has never been a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think maybe the Sound Devices recorders are the only ones that have the file name be scene and take numbers. The Deva doesn't do it this way, the Cantar doesn't do it, Fostex and Sonosax either.

If i remember correctly (now i own a Fusion), i guess that you can choose 'long filenames' (that includes filetag+stn) with the Cantar if your mirror drive is a dvd/cd. it is not possible if you're running an external hd, because of the limitations of the fat32.

i've used the sonosax recorder for a movie a couple of years ago, and this stn issue was of the features i disliked about it. that time, everyday i renamed all the files when i came to the hotel after shooting, using waveagent or simply changing the filename in the folder. Furthermore, with the firmware i was running (don't remember which one it was) the sx-r4 did create a single folder for each take i was recording, not a daily folder or something similar. so it was very frustrating...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use a 788T and the file naming is appreciated by post on the projects i do.

I usually just put the slate number (if it's a scripted drama style project) and let the recorder increment the take number.

Each day is kept in it's own folder, so looking up files later on is pretty straight forward for anyone on the post chain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The more i've used my Fusion the more i've come to like the method of how it names it's files separately from the slate/scene/take, however.... I would enjoy having the option to name files like I could with my SD recorder incase some lazy editor that can't read a sound report and connect the dots requests it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Same here with my 788t. Did make one change my current shoot. Folder structure used to be Week / Day1, Day2 etc followed by M, A, N, NN

This time I changed it to "Break-1, Break-2 etc to simplify tracking which files go where. Now it's Week# / Break-# / SceneNumber-Take

Which gives the editor something like this WEEK1 / Break-2 / 162A-01.wav

I alert scripty when we break and she notes the folder changes..

No complaints for editorial so far...

Mark L

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Is it a problem to have filenames without the slate/scene/take info? "

I'm with Jeff on this one. Have never had a whine from anyone in the post chain, in fact to avoid duplicates on a series the unique filename is a good thing, The posties often request iso tracks or reprints of stuff by the unique Cantar filename.

Also, you should tell that editor to read the sound reports. It should all be there.

Yours in Curmudgeondom,

Jim Rillie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have used both the 744t and the 788t on a number of movie shoots, TV shows, and commercials. I do like the ability to name each scene and take number as I wish, but it has bitten me in the tush a couple times. Where I ran into problems was typically on a feature where the scripty had a funky naming thing going on with multiple cameras rolling. I won't go into the details of it but in hindsight having completely unique file names like the Zaxcom/Sonosax, et al, recorders would have been a very good thing. I definitely see pros and cons to both methods. However, spending time in the hotel after a long day to rename files for post is something I would rather not do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I name my files on the 788T, as I also did in BoomRecorder when that was my multi-track method.

But honestly, if my recorder didn't name the files it wouldn't bother me a bit. Our job is recording sound. It's the editor's job to manage files. It's nice to help people when we can, but not at the expense of our primary function. Nor should we do things on our own time which the editor would be paid to do.

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On digital shoots, they're already dealing with camera files that aren't identified as "Scene number + Take number." I don't think it's that big a stretch to assume that an assistant editor / post person is going to have to organize, rename, and backup the files.

I got asked about it once on a project, and told the editor they could always get a utility program like BWF-Widget to rename the files, but they basically said -- no problem, as long as the metadata and timecode were OK.

--Marc W.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wave Agent has a rename function that will convert the file name to match the scene and take number. it does this in a batch method and it works very well. It is simple but it is just another step i'd rather not have to take.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recently worked on a feature with the 788SSD and found using the CL-WiFi and a iPad I could give post all the info they needed...

At the end of the day transferred all to Wave Agent and printed the sound sheets. Scene, Shot, Take and Timecode

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wave Agent has a rename function that will convert the file name to match the scene and take number. it does this in a batch method and it works very well. It is simple but it is just another step i'd rather not have to take.

Good to know, thanks. The sonosax is ordered and will arrive at the end of the week.

I guess I'll provide the filenames from scene/slate etc. at the end of the shooting day. I feel that a very clean delivery (good sound reports, file administration) makes people happy and remember me. I'm mostly working out of the bag so with the 744T I also did make fancy soundreports in the hotel room in the evening. As there is no timeduring the day to enter metadata.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good to know, thanks. The sonosax is ordered and will arrive at the end of the week.

I guess I'll provide the filenames from scene/slate etc. at the end of the shooting day. I feel that a very clean delivery (good sound reports, file administration) makes people happy and remember me. I'm mostly working out of the bag so with the 744T I also did make fancy soundreports in the hotel room in the evening. As there is no timeduring the day to enter metadata.

I'm very interested in how things go for you w/ the Sax recorder--I've been looking at it for a long time.

I feel like there should always be a bullet proof method for making sure every file has a unique identifier, which I guess is why Zax, Aaton etc use a simple ascending number for each file in addition to whatever naming you want to put in metadata. I keep hoping that SD will change to this method with their machines.... I do naming according to what I feel the needs and tolerances are of the posties involved, and, more importantly, how much time and mindshare I can devote to file naming on the fly. I too have never had any complaints about simple naming by an ascending (and non-repeating) sequence of file numbers, as long as I delivered (and they found) my reports that correlate scene/take with file number and TC start.

phil p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think maybe the Sound Devices recorders are the only ones that have the file name be scene and take numbers. The Deva doesn't do it this way, the Cantar doesn't do it, Fostex and Sonosax either. This has been discussed at great length here and elsewhere. I have delivered files with filenames that are NOT scene and take for the last 22 movies and it has never been a problem.

Well, the Fostex recorders actually do create scene/take filenames, more or less. i.e. 42_001.wav being scene 42, take 1. What do the Deva and Cantar do? I can't remember.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first recorder(that I owned), was a 744t. And I thought the Scene_Take.wav numbering scheme was brilliant. After moving to the Deva V, I wasn't sure I would like the Segment numbering scheme they used. However, now I prefer the Deva method, mainly because I can change the Scene/Take info while in record. Can't do that with SD products. And changing that info, because the Script Sup. changed there mind after "Roll Sound", was very useful. Especially since you have to change the file name through several menu steps. My sound report has a column for "Seg #", that is directly corrolated with the Scene/Take info, to minimize confusion. Have not had any issues, or concerns from post, yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a general comment about this subject, knowing that it has been discussed from every angle imaginable, the ease withy which post can deal with a filename that is scene and take, the liability of having the file NAME be scene and take (duplication, etc.), on and on. What I would like to know is, how important, really, is Scene and Take info? Thinking about SINGLE system sound (not that I am a big fan) where the sound is already tied to a piece of video (a file generated by the camera with any file naming scheme that the given camera uses) there seems to be little importance that scene and take info, if even there is scene and take info provided by a Script Supervisor, is even necessary. Certainly it is not necessary to achieve sync, that's a done deal, and as far as identifying what the shot is, well, that's the job of the camera dept./data wrangler/script person/assistant editor/telecine operator and anyone else involved as the project moves through production and post. Now, for DOUBLE system sound recording, the primary operation (after we have done a brilliant job of recording the sound on our lovely machines, Deva, Sound Devices, Cantar, Sonosax, Fostex, Zoom, etc., is to get those track in sync, married to the image. Isn't this accomplished by the proper use of timecode? It seems to me that if time-of-day timecode with the date in User Bits it used on all devices (sound recorder, image "recorder", etc.) there is little chance of any duplication, filenaming confusion and so forth, and the syncing process is not subject to the indecision/mistakes that the script person may or may not have made with THEIR naming procedure, that of creating a scene and take number. Finally, once everything is in sync, sound is married to the image, keeping track of all of this, logging, naming, sorting, etc., is entirely the job of post people in editorial.

I may be over-simplifying but I just get the feeling that a lot of this focus on Scene and Take is a carryover from the old days where the ONLY "metadata" available was whatever was handwritten on the clap slate by the camera assistant and whatever was put on the tape, voice ID and the sound of the clap, and of course all the handwritten notes to document it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think maybe the Sound Devices recorders are the only ones that have the file name be scene and take numbers. The Deva doesn't do it this way, the Cantar doesn't do it, Fostex and Sonosax either. This has been discussed at great length here and elsewhere. I have delivered files with filenames that are NOT scene and take for the last 22 movies and it has never been a problem.

Jeff, The Cantar can do it if you want it to - option exists. Your file name will then be XXnnnn - SC - Tk.wav.

XXnnnn is the unique Aaton file name id.

The other option names the file as XXnnnn.wav with metadata holding the SC/Tk/Comment/Trk Names/TC/SlateA,B,C TC etc...

There is a definite advantage in the machine-created unique ID - SC/Tk info is entered by user and there are chances of human error. The unique File ID then allows one to differentiate between two takes with the same SC/Tk entered erroneously.

-vin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have only used Sound Devices and Nagra recorders, so my earlier statement about most all recordings naming scene take was obviously way off base as I made an incorrect assumption about Zaxcom... for some reason, thought in my mind that it did this too. With the Nagra, the available options are:

MachNameXXX.wav

MachNameHHMMSS_XXX.wav

MachNameYYYYMMDDHHMMSS_XXX.wav

Tape_XXX.wav

TapeHHMMSS_XXX.wav

TapeYYYYMMDDHHMMSS_XXX.wav

Tape_Scene_Take_XXX.wav

Scene_Take_XXX.wav

YYMMDD_HHMMSS_XXX.wav

Machine name can be any string that you want.

Tape is the name of the folder that the files are recorded to. This can be custom selected or as an option, you can have the machine automatically create a folder upon power up with the day's date, if not already in existence and make the working folder. If you roll past midnight, it will not start writing the files to a new folder, which is good.

XXX is a unique file ID created by the machine used as an index, so you could have multiple same scene / take files, to handle false starts or premature cuts by sound.

I personally use Tape_Scene_Take_XXX.wav. This way I have the date, scene, take, and a unique index number, pretty much covering all bases. If I was doing a music recording instead, I would probably use TapeYYMMDD_HHMMSS_XXX.wav so that I could have the artist / event file header with a timestamp for easy reference.

I find that I use the built in Finder / Spotlight features of OS X for selecting files and have observed other editors do the same. Having this info in the form of a file name is surely convenient for those that work that way. It would be nice for machines to at least have this option, for choices are good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have only used Sound Devices and Nagra recorders, so my earlier statement about most all recordings naming scene take was obviously way off base as I made an incorrect assumption about Zaxcom... for some reason, thought in my mind that it did this too. With the Nagra, the available options are:

MachNameXXX.wav

MachNameHHMMSS_XXX.wav

MachNameYYYYMMDDHHMMSS_XXX.wav

Tape_XXX.wav

TapeHHMMSS_XXX.wav

TapeYYYYMMDDHHMMSS_XXX.wav

Tape_Scene_Take_XXX.wav

Scene_Take_XXX.wav

YYMMDD_HHMMSS_XXX.wav

Machine name can be any string that you want.

Tape is the name of the folder that the files are recorded to. This can be custom selected or as an option, you can have the machine automatically create a folder upon power up with the day's date, if not already in existence and make the working folder. If you roll past midnight, it will not start writing the files to a new folder, which is good.

XXX is a unique file ID created by the machine used as an index, so you could have multiple same scene / take files, to handle false starts or premature cuts by sound.

I personally use Tape_Scene_Take_XXX.wav. This way I have the date, scene, take, and a unique index number, pretty much covering all bases. If I was doing a music recording instead, I would probably use TapeYYMMDD_HHMMSS_XXX.wav so that I could have the artist / event file header with a timestamp for easy reference.

I find that I use the built in Finder / Spotlight features of OS X for selecting files and have observed other editors do the same. Having this info in the form of a file name is surely convenient for those that work that way. It would be nice for machines to at least have this option, for choices are good.

I like having the choice of YYMMDD_HHMMSS be part of the file name. In a documentary situation where scene names are pretty much useless this would give the editors the ability to find a particular chunk of audio based on TC. They could find it without having to find the log, play the file, or open a metadata editor to do so. On any platform an editor can find exactly the audio that they need. Along with Nagra, Fostex did this as well. Actually fostex would name the file from the RTC clock so your RTC and your TC would have to be in relative synch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the Nagra, the available options are:

MachNameXXX.wav

MachNameHHMMSS_XXX.wav

MachNameYYYYMMDDHHMMSS_XXX.wav

Tape_XXX.wav

TapeHHMMSS_XXX.wav

TapeYYYYMMDDHHMMSS_XXX.wav

Tape_Scene_Take_XXX.wav

Scene_Take_XXX.wav

YYMMDD_HHMMSS_XXX.wav

It would be nice for machines to at least have this option, for choices are good.

The Nagra seems to have adopted the best possible lineup of choices for file naming, choice is good! I don't imagine any of the other machines are likely to revise their file naming routines. It looks like Nagra and Nagra users are benefitting from Nagra being a little late to the party with their full professional file-based recorder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

because I can change the Scene/Take info while in record. Can't do that with SD products.

You can do it on SD788 (DD/edit/rename) during recording. But only for the current recording, not for the next take.

Vinc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

" Is it a problem to have filenames without the slate/scene/take info? "

So, in summary, probably not a problem, but with them may, or may not be a bit more convenient...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×