"actual combat" audio

[JCC]

Hi all.

Day after tomorrow, I'll be chasing a young 'soldier in training' with his 'group' around on his first simulated 'combat experience' - lots of screaming, loud gunshots, running through brambles and creeks, etc.

I've never been in anything nearing combat, and I've certainly never tried to record it before.

We're shooting on two 5D's to keep it light, and I'll be packing an SD 552 (recording to sd card - no audio to cams), one or two wirelesses (one for soldier, and perhaps one for instructor), and a boom.

I'm told the shooter barely ever uses a slate - does it all with pluraleyes, and the 2nd cam is a producer, who's just hoping to grab b roll when possible.

Here's my plan going into it - please let me know how you might approach it differently, especially if you have any experience recording guns or combat.

1. SLATE/TC:

I'm thinking about the lightest gear I can carry, and I'm trying to decide whether to haul around an electronic slate.

I'm considering wearing a good porta-brace harness for the 552, and find a way to strap/gaff the slate to my chest, so that shooters can just aim at my chest and record some tc whenever they power up/ press record.

2. MIC/TX PLACEMENT:

I'm also considering my mic/tx placement - I'm thinking moleskin over a tram, wired from chest over shoulder to the lower back, might be the most secure. And I'll try to get him to put on a body belt/velcro strap to hold the TX. I expect he/we will be running, crawling, perhaps diving around - do you suppose center of lower back will be the safest place (for talent and tx) to locate that transmitter?

3. BOOM - debating between a handheld shotgun holder, and my 7' Ktek boom pole, which has a better shotgun mount. Probably go with the boom pole.

3. TX/ MIX SETTING FOR GUNSHOTS & SCREAMING:

mix limiter: I expect I'll probably increase my mixer's limiter to 16 or 17 dbu (3 or 4 down from no limiter), so the gunshots work the mix limiter - not sure if I've ever dealt with noise that loud before... Should I sweat if his gunshots clip much? Is it possible to get good gunshots and 'conversation-level' dialogue?

TX level: I expect I'll also turn my tx volume down (usually run the lectro um400 & 200 at 12 o'clock (4 on the dial), so I expect I'll cut that in half (10 Oclock, or 2 on the dial)

RX level: I usually run my rx's (um401, & ucr 201) at -25 (for everything from hockey to screaming coaches in loud stadiums), and I think I'll start by knocking my rx's down to -30, and see how that works....

Does this sound like a reasonable way to proceed? If any of you have any advice for this kind of a situation, I'd be really grateful.

I do pray God the shooter is in worse shape than I am.

Thank you!

John

[Michael]

First thing to remember is if the shooter usually use a slate he probably wont remember to turn and shoot your slate. I would leave it at home to keep it safe.

As for transmitter placement remember to check to see if there is any water or mud sections of the course that the troops will be expected to traverse. Use waterproof pouches if needed.

Not sure about combat helmets but most construction Helmets make a good place to hide a mic capsule. See if you can hid the mic there.

Michael

[JCC]

First thing to remember is if the shooter usually use a slate he probably wont remember to turn and shoot your slate. I would leave it at home to keep it safe.

As for transmitter placement remember to check to see if there is any water or mud sections of the course that the troops will be expected to traverse. Use waterproof pouches if needed.

Not sure about combat helmets but most construction Helmets make a good place to hide a mic capsule. See if you can hid the mic there.

Michael

[JCC]

Thank you Michael. I'm betting you're right about that slate - I will look into waterproof pouches tomorrow.

John

[Derek H]

#1 make sure you're paid well

I would say skip the slate. Too awkward when you're so on the move. If they like plural eyes go with that. I would vouch for slapping a g2 on each camera and just sending a scratch track. That will ensure a good plural eyes synch up. Would also allow for your voice to slate which audio file you are rolling to at the moment. Though with no display on the 552 I'm sure the file count will get confusing.

I'd keep a note pad and take a few notes when you can, for each roll ideally. That may help a ton later.

As far as mounting a lav I would recommend being prepared to mount it totally exposed as he may have so much gear on that hiding it under clothing won't work (this is the only option if he has a vest on). This means make sure you have vamp clips or tie clips and wind protection of some sort. I've used the cos--11, mesh wind cap, and micro-cat fur in the past and it's nearly wind-proof.

I'd throw the transmitter in an empty pocket of some sort either on the outside of the vest or cargo pocket somewhere. You could also consider an ankle strap of some sort if the boots aren't too high up. Either way may get you better range than middle of the back.

May also consider bagging the transmitter up in a dry condom if there will be river crossings or mud.

As far as recording gunshots.. Just use you're best sense. Give the mic enough air away from the muzzle obviously and just work the trim knob when you have to. If you know ahead of time you'll be recording artillery or something crazy loud up close I would consider tossing in an sm58 or other"beater" dynamic mic. Protect your ears!!

Can the 552 still provide phantom to a line input or did they nix that feature? If not, you could try that.. Though your problem would more than likely be at the microphone capsule if things were that loud.

anyway, there's a ramble of thoughts for you.

Good luck! And be safe!

[Jaymz]

Don't worry about gunshots hitting the limiters, even hitting them hard. If you adjust gain so they don't, you'll end up with popcorn sounding gunshots in many cases and dialogue close to the noise floor.

[Tom Visser]

First off, this is not going to be a live fire exercise. I've done live fire exercises before and it is reserved for much more experienced troops who know what they are doing and have much more situational awareness than a "first time" young trainee is expected to have. It is debatable that the trainees will have actual operating weapons. If they do, they will be firing blanks. A typical M-16 when firing blanks needs a BFA or blank firing adapter. This is basically a plug that pressurizes the barrel to allow the bolt carrier group to recoil into the buffer / buffer spring, to allow proper automatic / semi-automatic feed. When equipped with such an adapter, the sound output of the weapon is highly muted. Some sources of loud noises might be some flash powder bags and whistlers that the instructors will throw in the exercise area, basically a fancy form of fireworks. Those can get pretty loud and as pointed out, it would be pretty pointless to try to fit such explosive sounds and dialogue, even screaming, on the same track. Just go for the dialogue. If you want to try to capture other loud sounds, consider a dynamic mic with lower gain settings specifically for those sounds. Any random capture explosive or gunshot is likely going to sound pretty thin and "unrealistic". Real gunfire doesn't sound as exciting as professionally recorded gunfire, which has layers of different sounds and reverb tails added / layered together. I could be wrong, maybe it is a dog and pony show for some top brass or VIP civilians, and they will roll out some heavy hardware for more exciting visceral effect. I've been downrange of vehicle mounted .50 cal and wrong end of 7.62mm machine guns firing live ammo. The explosive chest pounding sound / pressure waves are really quite something else.

[MatthewFreedAudio]

I have recorded quite a lot of real weapons, explosions, blanks, and numerous other military equipment. A few things I've learned:

1. Have a 20-30dB pad for every channel.

2. Set your sample rate to 96K or higher. The firing sound is extremely short so a high sample rate is a must.

3. Your microphones can handle the SPL assuming you are at a reasonable distance. You will be at a reasonable distance, they won't let you any closer.

4. The volume of weapons discharging in relation to dialogue/speaking/even yelling is pretty different. Set your levels for the gun shots because they will clip like crazy if you set it for the dialogue.

5. The limiters on the SD mixers do very well in the field.

6. The lav will more than likely get knocked off, ripped off, and generally be nearly unusable. If you do secure it to the guy put it in an outside pocket and don't try to wire through their clothing. I would highly recommend mounting the lav externally because all you'll get otherwise is muffled breathing, puffing, puffing, and gear rattling around. Not to mention that modern military fatigues have a lot of velcro and it is difficult to put a transmitter under their clothing and then wind the cable out in a decent spot.

7. Send a guide track to your cameras and make sure there is tons of head room. Their onboard mics will clip constantly and the audio will not be usable to PluralEyes.

8. A similar volume for testing levels is to take a metal hammer and hit something metal and heavy. Put your mic about 10-20 feet away and set your levels.

9. Unfortunately, you will be rather disappointed in the sound of the weapons using only a couple microphones. They will sound like firecrackers. I recently recorded a bunch of WWII weapons and modern weapons all firing live ammo. I set up two surround sets plus pocket mics, impact mics, and whiz-by mics. All told I used 19 microphones ranging from a Naumann U87 to Sanken CS3 and CSS5 to AKG414 to a Sanken COS11 on a Zaxcom 900LT. I played with the phase, levels, and blend of all those mics to get a pretty amazing sound for the movie I was editing. It made the single shotgun mic on set seem pretty darn thin.

And...be careful. Bring good ear and eye protection.

Have fun!

[JDirckze]

The attached photo is from a recent shoot but shows my setup.

Hi Scott,

Nice looking bag! Do you mind if I ask what model it is and what mixer was in it?

Cheers,

Jase

[mikewest]

My thoughts are probably too late but here goes:

Use a waterproof MM400 transmitter with a B3 microphone

Use a lithium battery and set the transmitter gain right down and do some shouting tests

Put the microphone maybe to one side of his clothing maybe his neck band not the helmet

Jam a small t/c box to your recorder and put it on the A camera to feed 1 Audio track

Put a mike with windshield on the B camera

Use a very short boom

Good luck

mike

[Izen Ears]

Earplugs or HN-7506 cans. And find out if the ammo is live or blanks. I'd set the lav to "yelling" level, which is too soft for normal talking but should not really trigger the Lectro limiter on a loud yell. I just had a scene where a guy is spraying blanks from a fully automatic M16 or something while yelling the whole time. Worked great on the Sanken COS set softer than yelling level and it was usable. The shots will definitely hit your limiter on your lav but that's ok.

I've recorded tons of blanks and a few live rounds and what makes it cool is multiple mics!

Dan Izen

[Derek H]

Hi Scott,

Nice looking bag! Do you mind if I ask what model it is and what mixer was in it?

Cheers,

Jase

The bag in Scott's photo is a petrol bag made for the 442/552 or x5. It's very compact, though wider on the sides actually. I believe he has a 552 and two SRa receivers in there. Not much room for much else, hops have to go in the side pouches, an np1 can be fit in the belly pouch, but that's about as compact as a 5 channel rig can get of you ask me.

Scott correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.

[studiomprd]

there is already a lot of good advice here, but I too would skip the TC slate, as the shooter doesn't seem to want it. For this "gig", less is more.

BEWARE in micing soldiers in combat (real or simulated!!), which is similar to micing athletes in competition: SAFETY FIRST, and that is the mic-ee's safety, as well as your own! You don't want yourself, or your equipment to be in the way, or possibly interfere in any way, like a cord getting caught on something, or perhaps someone falling on a mic pack and getting injured. Lectro MM TX's are really rugged! As any wireless is being exposed to unusual wear and tear, be certain that you have a certificate of insurance, and the production company is aware of the fact that they are responsible for any and all L&D.

As for the boom, (I'd suggest a short pole), and a rugged short mic (I've been happy with CS-1)and mounting with wind protection, I use a fuzzy covered windscreen as opposed to a more awkward Zepp. Your gunshot recordings won't sound real anyway, so let them top out...

and lastly: SAFETY FIRST!!

[RPSharman]

Gunfire is fun to record, but as others have pointed out, very hard to get to sound good in the field. Recording a dynamic (SM58) and a short shotgun (MKH50) and a lav (your choice) can yield some good results when remixed later.

I have used a COS11 and SM mounted in a helmet, and it worked great. AK74 blasting off rounds, which clips for sure, but then getting the words between the gunfire quite nicely. Soldiers have so many straps and things on combat uniforms, and the helmet mic kept all that noise away from the mic.

Earplugs are a must. Be safe and have fun,

Robert

[Jon Gilbert]

I've recorded a lot of actual firefights, never done a simulated one yet

If the guy is wearing body armour, you're halfway there, I use lectro SMQVs, with Cos11s, the armour gives you a multitude of placing options for the TX and a simple rig made from a safety pin (the locking nappy pin type) and a bit of gaffer tape is all you need.

I've never felt the need to record at 96k, 48 has always sufficed, keep plenty of headroom, as someone else said, set your levels as though people are yelling. Keep a boom open on a separate track (I use either a CS3e or an MKH60, both with as much pad as possible) to get you out of trouble if the radios don't do what they should.

[Jon Gilbert]

One more thing (As Columbo used to say!)

If you're not sending audio to the camera, if there's anyway you can stick a decent(ish) top mic on the camera, you'll get another potentially usable track there, sometimes a bit of distance from the gun fire can save the day.

[Solid Goldberger]

I know this has come up from time to time in other threads, but I thought it would be useful to inquire here.

I'll also be doing a "actual combat" shoot in the near future, and I'll be using a 552, Lectro Wireless, and a Schoeps CMIT. What are people's thoughts on using the Schoeps with gunfire (real) and explosions (simulated). Is there any risk of damaging it? I have heard that it can handle a higher SPL then most shotgun mics, but I have no experience using it on anything but voices, so I'm a bit concerned. I also will be bringing a Sennheiser 416, but as this has no onboard pads/high-pass filters, I have extra concerns.

Can anyone confirm that I'll be okay with one or both of these mics?

e.

[studiomprd]

" Is there any risk of damaging it? "

Yes, of course there is!

How much risk?? it depends...

be certain production is aware, and will cover L+D, and have a plan B. Some folks just go directly to plan B, but then you need a plan C !!

[Jaymz]

Is there any risk of damaging it? I have heard that it can handle a higher SPL then most shotgun mics, but I have no experience using it on anything but voices, so I'm a bit concerned.

I've never used one, but it's rated for 132db SPL. I've used (and been part of teams that have used) mics with lower SPL's on extremely loud weapons. A 120mm tank gun and 30mm cannons about 40m away for example, none of them were damaged. But as has been mentioned, being covered for damages would certainly be good.

[JCC]

Thanks very much, Gang!

I'm really grateful. I followed a lot of your advice, and I think it went well in spite of multiple hardware failures.

Synch is going to be a bugger, because my lav track was trashed (due to constant, horrible rustle, as some of you expected - and I was busy with other hardware issues, so I didn't kill the lav) and they wouldn't take scratch track signal, nor time code, and since it was raining, the shooter took her external boom off her camera...

OY.

I'm drafting a recommendation for pluraleyes post workflow, which I hope to share here - to see what y'all think.

Again, deepest gratitude to all of you.

And btw, it wasn't exactly "live combat simulation", but it was live ammo (and on the run), and they let us very close - (what a world!). It was very professionally supervised tho, and it felt really safe even tho I did change my undies after the shoot .

John

[Izen Ears]

I would love to hear a sample. Here's a gunfight I recorded for a 2nd unit gig earlier this year. 7 mics, probably 15 - 18 guns. The mix is just a super rough (kind of lame) headphones mix done really super fast, you post fellas could make this much cooler.

gunfight.mp3 I've never uploaded anything before I hope this works!

Dan Izen

[Eric Toline]

I would love to hear a sample. Here's a gunfight I recorded for a 2nd unit gig earlier this year. 7 mics, probably 15 - 18 guns. The mix is just a super rough (kind of lame) headphones mix done really super fast, you post fellas could make this much cooler.

gunfight.mp3 I've never uploaded anything before I hope this works!

Dan Izen

See if you can find a copy of "Heat" with Al Pachino & Robert DeNiro. The shootout in the streets of LA is one of the best gunfire sounds you'll ever hear. An amazing job by Lee Orloff & his crew. AFAIK many, many plant mics.

Eric

[Tom Visser]

See if you can find a copy of "Heat" with Al Pachino & Robert DeNiro. The shootout in the streets of LA is one of the best gunfire sounds you'll ever hear. An amazing job by Lee Orloff & his crew. AFAIK many, many plant mics.

Eric

I agree. When I first heard this, my ears immediately perked up and took notice. Took me back to my days as a Marine on live fire exercises and MOUT assault courses. Something is always missing in film sound, simply because playback systems are just not capable, nor would the public stand for, realistic SPL levels. When close to weapon systems, especially near the larger calibre and explosive types, the pressure waves created can interrupt breathing, the ability for your ears to work, and for your mind to think straight.

[Eric Toline]

I agree. When I first heard this, my ears immediately perked up and took notice. Took me back to my days as a Marine on live fire exercises and MOUT assault courses. Something is always missing in film sound, simply because playback systems are just not capable, nor would the public stand for, realistic SPL levels. When close to weapon systems, especially near the larger calibre and explosive types,

the pressure waves created can interrupt breathing, the ability for your ears to work, and for your mind to think straight.

I know a girl who can cause the same reaction.

Eric