Elephant_Talk Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Hello everyone, I've own a 2nd handed Sennheiser MKH 416T for a few years now; I mainly use it for dialogue recording on location but also for FX and foley recording. While it is a good mic that has served me well, I think it has a considerably high self noise for quiet locations or low level sounds (some foley stuff); apart from this I would also like a mic that can help me to get better dialogue on noisy environments (off-axis rejection). I'm now considering on getting a used Neumann KMR 81i (as they can be found in the market from time to time) to record "warmer" dialogue and also for studio work. I haven't used the KMR 81i myself and won't have the chance to test it because of where I live (I would have to import the mic) so I'm not really sure if moving from a MKH 416T to a KMR 81i would be the big upgrade I expect it to be... I've done my research (reading online reviews and listening to Dan Brockett test) but without the chance of testing the mic I just feel insecure about the decision. Can anyone with experience with this two mics please comment on the next points: - quality for dialogue recording - self noise - off-axis rejection - quality for foley/fx recording Any advice on this matter will be greatly appreciated! All the best, Andres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker71 Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 I owned a 416T a while back, and subsequently the RSM-191 which I believe shares some characteristics with the KMR 81i (not sure if it shares some of the exact same components). What struck me about the Neumann compared to the 416T was how "isolated" and warm it could make things sound, almost like you're in a soundbooth. The Neumann also handled off-mic and reflections with more grace than the 416T, ie the frequency response is more uniform when mildly off-mic. There's a reason Sennheiser bought Neumann .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Alas, in the end it is really a subjective call, and the differences are a bit subtle, but if you go to a Sanken CS-3e, you will, I suspect, notice the differences more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacopo Pineschi Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Isn't the CS-3e a bit too colorful for foley, compared to the 81? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 " a bit too colorful for Foley, " that is Foley with an upper case F... and no, not really, as the CS-3e is black. actually the answer here is "it is very subjective, but I wouldn't normally choose an interference tube type of mic for Foley work... What I said was that the differences compared to the 416 would be more noticeable with a CS-3e, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 If your 416 is really noisy you might want to have it checked by a tech.... For me the Neumann is a smoother sounding mic than the 416, but doesn't have any more "reach". It also doesn't have that "cockroach" aspect that the 416 has (seems to work when nothing else will re: moisture and RF). phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 It will not be a "big upgrade". The biggest differences are that RF noise is more likely with KMR-81, it is more sensitive to humidity, and you will no longer have to deal with T power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacopo Pineschi Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 that is Foley with an upper case F...oops! actually the answer here is "it is very subjective, but I wouldn't normally choose an interference tube type of mic for Foley work... I agree 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg sextro Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 ... 416s are used all the time on Foley stages. Just sayin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjGo Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 I'm afraid that the self noise of a CS3e will be higher compared to a 416. The times I used a KMR81 on noisy locations, I wasn't too impressed by the off-axis rejection when it comes to 'rejecting' noise like traffic, people etc.. the Sanken CS3e will win on that department, hands down.. I can't really comment on the self-noise of a KMR81i, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headpooch Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 If I only could have 1 microphone in my quiver, the 416 would be my choice. Old Mr. Reliable though thick and thin, jungles and deserts. Never failed me yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 There you go again talking about the quiver, or is it the arrows, or it's the archer not the quiver? Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjGo Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 If I only could have 1 microphone in my quiver, the 416 would be my choice. Old Mr. Reliable though thick and thin, jungles and deserts. Never failed me yet. And yeah, the 416 allways comes with me on trips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephant_Talk Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Fortunately I won't be selling my 416 in order to get a new mic, it' clear to me that it is a "must" to keep one in the quiver : D. It's only that after 4 years using just that shotgun mic I feel like trying a new flavor and now I kind of have some money for it... Is there any mic you guys would recommend that can fulfill the expectations stated in my initial post? Or am I expecting to much from a single mic? Thanks! Andres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Personally I would never sell a mic. If I were rich, I would buy many, many more. As it is I have, I have plenty, including a 415 n 416. Once the mic has paid for itself I see no reason to sell it. Just my POV. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Fortunately I won't be selling my 416 in order to get a new mic, it' clear to me that it is a "must" to keep one in the quiver : D. It's only that after 4 years using just that shotgun mic I feel like trying a new flavor and now I kind of have some money for it... Is there any mic you guys would recommend that can fulfill the expectations stated in my initial post? Or am I expecting to much from a single mic? Thanks! Andres. I wouldn't buy another mic which is very close to what you already have, unless you're getting pairs for two-mic shots, which many of us have. If I had just a 416 and were looking to add another mic, I'd be thinking MKH50 or Schoeps CMC/41. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfvid Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 had 2x 81s for years. much NICER ( friendlier, warmer, kinder, gentler,subtler (!) ) sounding than any Sennheisser - . Senn seems to dig out voices (high mids) from NOISE better. Neumann is a little more wind sensitive, you need to take care you have proper bags. low freques are there - not so much on Sennh. never had moisture probs. Sennh. is an axe, Neumann a butter knife. geeeeeeeeeeeez wolf ( PS my 2 are for sale at LSC) so are my Senn. 48V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 There you go again talking about the quiver, or is it the arrows, or it's the archer not the quiver? Whatever. [highjack] I'm starting to not like the "archer not the arrows" analogy much anymore. An archer can't do his job if he's out of ammo can he... [/highjack] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 I've done my research (reading online reviews and listening to Dan Brockett test) but without the chance of testing the mic I just feel insecure about the decision. I strongly believe you shouldn't buy any microphone at all, especially in this price range ($1000+), without first actually using it for a weekend and trying it out under battle conditions. Rent or borrow one before you commit to a purchase. There's tons of good choices out there: Neumann, Sanken, Schoeps, Sennheiser... all different, each good in certain ways, maybe not as good in other ways. If you're trying to use a short shotgun for both dialog and Foley (capital F), then the 416P48 or the MKH60 are both actually pretty good. I have to say, the Sennheisers I've used have extremely low noise floors. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 I'm of the same mind as Mr. Sharman. If you do interior dialog at all, a Schoeps CMC6/MK41 or Sennheiser MKH50 would be my suggestion for a first addition to the arsenal. You mention foley and sfx gathering, so you might even consider a Schoeps MK4 (cardioid) capsule, which sounds even better than the MK41 with a slightly wider pattern and it also doesn't have the rear lobe that you get with a hyper-cardioid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yep, I find that a CS3e and a CMC6/MK41 are two key strands of fettucini in my plate of pesto made with basil from our garden. And a 416 is always useful in a second helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resonate Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 I own both. First worked for some time with neumann kmr 81 that was not mine at that time. Then bought my first mic - a 416. Sennheiser is a workhorse, but i got tired of its poor performance in interiors pretty fast - outside it's where it really works well. So the next mics i bought were a pair of neumann kmr81 mics - i was thinking hard and long about that, and wanted a pair that could be used together. Anyway, it's a similar mic technically, it has the similar reach (difference being 416 has some boosted highs that makes you perceive the reach as 'better') kmr81 has a wider sweet spot, makes it more forgiving when you mike two people for ex. And it's a lot smoother, buttery in fact. I personally love that as it seems to work on every voice i throw at it. Voices sound natural, balanced, and just real. Like you hear them with your ears. Even the squeaky woman voices. It does not accentuate sibilants unnaturally. With 416, you can achieve a similar result by putting it into a basket. It loses the hf boost a little then and it's more balanced. So, the kmr81 is darker, more studio-sounding mic than the brighter 416. It captures the room ambience better and sounds more natural in interiors. Better for foley too i think, because it does not boost HF like 416. Think steps, paper, sibilants, whatever has that hf in it - with 416 it can sound fake if you're miking it too close. (the solution is to mike it further away, but then you have to have perfect room acoustics) It just sounds natural. I think it's a classy sounding mic and am happy to have it in my kit. Oh, and the neumann is more delicate - think moisture and rf (for rf, the solution i have yet to try seems to be the neutrik xlr jacks that have rf shield built in) i had mine fail on me in rain on my last shoot, but i was standing in the rain (the kmr81 was in the basket) 416 saved the day then. Now - i'm wondering and asking the people who have schoeps mk41 is it worth for me to buy the 41 hyper to use in interiors over neumann? Bartosz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Use a hyper like the 41 over the 81i shotguns for indoor use? It's not a question, it's the answer! Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resonate Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Thanks Eric:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 If your looking for reach the schoeps cmit is amazing for it's size, but if your going for an all around mic for both location and foley I'd get the MKH50 it's a little wider than the 416 but it's more natural and this will be great for your foley work. It will also mix beautifully with your 416 you already have... And you should send it to sennheiser if it's noisy because the 416 is really usually pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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