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4 channel on camera recording.


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I mostly do jobs where we record audio directly on camera. 2 channels from my mixer to camera and a stereo return feed so I know the audio is good. Now with the SD 552 being able to send 4 separate channels via AES, how are we supposed to monitor those 4 chanels?

I mostly work with Sony XDCAM cameras, and it only lets you monitor 2 channels at the time, even thogh it can record 4. Are there other cameras that will let you monitor all channels?

I was thinking about using the recorder in the SD 552 instead as a back up while recording 4 channels to camera, but it seems the built in recorder can only be routed to one of the AES pairs, so that wouldn't work either.

I just can't seem to figure out how to get the 4 tracks recorded onto camera in a safe way. Any ideas?

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You can send 4 channels 2 by 2 to 2 cameras and also have 2 returns. Return A and Return B. I did it on a 1 month show this may: 4 Iso channels post fade however I used only one return and the second camera monitored on headphones.

I mostly do jobs where we record audio directly on camera. 2 channels from my mixer to camera and a stereo return feed so I know the audio is good. Now with the SD 552 being able to send 4 separate channels via AES, how are we supposed to monitor those 4 chanels?

I mostly work with Sony XDCAM cameras, and it only lets you monitor 2 channels at the time, even thogh it can record 4. Are there other cameras that will let you monitor all channels?

I was thinking about using the recorder in the SD 552 instead as a back up while recording 4 channels to camera, but it seems the built in recorder can only be routed to one of the AES pairs, so that wouldn't work either.

I just can't seem to figure out how to get the 4 tracks recorded onto camera in a safe way. Any ideas?

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keep in mind that a lot of cameras don't support 4 channels or you have to do funny things to get the channels in (5 pin xlr for 2 of the channels etc.) Usually there is an option on the side near headphone volume control for channel specific monitoring vs mix. I would just select the mix it should give you the mixed feed. Now figuring out what is too hot vs just right in that mix is another problem all together. But I can't think of a camera where you can do more than a stereo return monitor.

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Well perhaps a large assumption, but you'd hope with testing before you start, sending tone etc that you could rely on all 4 tracks being solid when the two you're monitoring are good -

Yeah, it should be fine, most times, but every now and then you get a cable that breaks/ gets loose or the cam op changes some settings by mistake or by intent. So If I couldn't hear it, I would never be sure about the quality of the audio on tape.

You can send 2 channels to 2 cameras and also have 2 returns. Return A and Return B. I did it on a 1 month show this may: 4 Iso channels post fade however I used only one return and the second camera monitored on headphones.

Thats a great idea, I'd forgotten about that. Did you go wireless for that then? Seems pretty hard to work with two umbillical cords at once. I'd really like to be able to send all the channels to 1 camera, but thats a good tip, thanks.

Interesting. I was looking at doing the same in the future.

I was hoping with the 552 you could send 4 tracks AES to the camera and do a stereo mix on the two track recorder. But you really can't do that?

Looks like some one is calling SD.

Exactly. I need to either be able to listen to all the separate channels (summed up) in the return feed OR be able to record a stereomix of everything while sending the iso tracks to camera. Right now none of that seems possible.

keep in mind that a lot of cameras don't support 4 channels or you have to do funny things to get the channels in (5 pin xlr for 2 of the channels etc.) Usually there is an option on the side near headphone volume control for channel specific monitoring vs mix. I would just select the mix it should give you the mixed feed. Now figuring out what is too hot vs just right in that mix is another problem all together. But I can't think of a camera where you can do more than a stereo return monitor.

The XDCAM can record 4 iso AES tracks via 2 regular XLRs. No problems there at all. However, you can only monitor track 1&2 OR track 3&4 at any given time. Thats the problem right there.

"I mostly do jobs where we record audio directly on camera. 2 channels from my mixer to camera and a stereo return feed so I know the audio is good."

I would say keep doing what you have been doing, and now that you have the 552, you can do a back up recording.

Yeah but production keeps questioning me why we cant record everything separate instead when there are 4 audio tracks on the disks we use. I keep telling them why, but it would be really great, for me and them, If I could utilize the 4 tracks, while still being able to hear or make a back up for safety.

If you need more channels, you can get the 788. It has 12 record tracks. L&R as the mix track with the cl8 and aux 1&2 for cam.

Sadly there is no way they would consider doing dual system recording. I work in TV and with our constant deadlines there really isn't any time for post syncing. It has to be on camera, but they want it isoed. Its too bad that it almost works, but just almost. 4 channel on camera would be just great.

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Another option is to send your 4 iso's to the camera from the direct outputs, post fade or pre fade, the choice is yours. If you send direct out, pre fade, it won't matter what you do with the faders, your iso's will always be on the camera.

Then, you can record the mix to the SD card in the 552.

Something I have mentioned in other threads, is the fact that no matter how you send the iso's to the camera, there is no way of visually metering/monitoring the 4 signals at the mixer since it only has 2 meters.

Apart from standing next to the camera and watching the camera meters, there is no way to monitor visually. This is the case with using a 4 channel wireless hop too, whether it's a Lectro D4 or Zaxcom QRX100.

If one was to use a 788T for example, you could visually see metering of the iso's you were sending to the camera, no problem.

Best regards

Peter Mega

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Something I have mentioned in other threads, is the fact that no matter how you send the iso's to the camera, there is no way of visually metering/monitoring the 4 signals at the mixer since it only has 2 meters.

Apart from standing next to the camera and watching the camera meters, there is no way to monitor visually. This is the case with using a 4 channel wireless hop too, whether it's a Lectro D4 or Zaxcom QRX100.

If one was to use a 788T for example, you could visually see metering of the iso's you were sending to the camera, no problem.

For what its worth Nomad will let you calibrate the camera return meters so you will be able to see the levels going to camera and compare it to the camera returns.

And there is a meter screen that you can see the sends and returns on together.

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Another option is to send your 4 iso's to the camera from the direct outputs, post fade or pre fade, the choice is yours. If you send direct out, pre fade, it won't matter what you do with the faders, your iso's will always be on the camera.

Then, you can record the mix to the SD card in the 552.

Something I have mentioned in other threads, is the fact that no matter how you send the iso's to the camera, there is no way of visually metering/monitoring the 4 signals at the mixer since it only has 2 meters.

Apart from standing next to the camera and watching the camera meters, there is no way to monitor visually. This is the case with using a 4 channel wireless hop too, whether it's a Lectro D4 or Zaxcom QRX100.

If one was to use a 788T for example, you could visually see metering of the iso's you were sending to the camera, no problem.

Best regards

Peter Mega

The cameras Im working with right now will only accept 4 channels via AES. Good point about the metering though.

For what its worth Nomad will let you calibrate the camera return meters so you will be able to see the levels going to camera and compare it to the camera returns.

And there is a meter screen that you can see the sends and returns on together.

Hmm, yeah thats an idea, however a very expensive one. Thanks for the tip.

" I would never be sure about the quality of the audio on tape. "

you would need 4 ears...

Or I could group them 2 channels / Ear. Seems easier.....

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4 smqvs to 2 SRas with L type battery

If you want 4 channels to 1 camera Lectro D4 is your friend.

Thats a great idea, I'd forgotten about that. Did you go wireless for that then? Seems pretty hard to work with two umbillical cords at once. I'd really like to be able to send all the channels to 1 camera, but thats a good tip, thanks.

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  • 3 months later...

May I offer an elegant wireless solution to the 4 channel send and return issue.

I am still waiting to receive an 8 trk Nomad with the IFB to test this out but, this combination of gear will be able to send 4 tracks - either analogue out (into a STA150/TRX900AA) or digital AES out (into a STA042/TRX900) to the camera wirelessly.

Either way there is only one receiver needed at the camera end - QRX100Q which can output its 4 channel signal in either analog or digital AES.

However, where the magic comes into this equation is that the QRX100 with the IFB option will allow the soundo to wirelessly monitor the camera from the Nomad mixer as it has the IFB receiver built in, no additional gear needed, - just like switching the headphone monitoring to "return" in the old cable days. It will depend on camera settings as to what tracks you monitor on this return as the IFB feed can only send what you put into it - from the camera. Also you can pre or post fade record each channel in the Nomad in case there is a camera audio issue - or maybe you don't sent everything to the camera.

If only this level of sophistication existed when I was recording on location I may have lasted longer........ maybe not, the embryo's in charge these days want everything supplied and don't want to pay for it. In fact they are offering less money and wanting more gear and hours than they did 10 years ago, not taking inflation into account either. But that's another issue that's been covered before.

cheers

Ross

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You could take the de embedded returns aes and set up a return headphone monitor preference, or solo the channels to hear individual tracks.

Great idea, would love to see that in action with pictures and description. I ve been thinking about sending 4 channel to camera for a bit now but, as other mentionned, i ve been facing the fondamental issue of the only 2 channel at a time return.

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May I offer an elegant wireless solution to the 4 channel send and return issue.

I am still waiting to receive an 8 trk Nomad with the IFB to test this out but, this combination of gear will be able to send 4 tracks - either analogue out (into a STA150/TRX900AA) or digital AES out (into a STA042/TRX900) to the camera wirelessly.

Either way there is only one receiver needed at the camera end - QRX100Q which can output its 4 channel signal in either analog or digital AES.

However, where the magic comes into this equation is that the QRX100 with the IFB option will allow the soundo to wirelessly monitor the camera from the Nomad mixer as it has the IFB receiver built in, no additional gear needed, - just like switching the headphone monitoring to "return" in the old cable days. It will depend on camera settings as to what tracks you monitor on this return as the IFB feed can only send what you put into it - from the camera. Also you can pre or post fade record each channel in the Nomad in case there is a camera audio issue - or maybe you don't sent everything to the camera.

If only this level of sophistication existed when I was recording on location I may have lasted longer........ maybe not, the embryo's in charge these days want everything supplied and don't want to pay for it. In fact they are offering less money and wanting more gear and hours than they did 10 years ago, not taking inflation into account either. But that's another issue that's been covered before.

cheers

Ross

That would truly be a nice set up. But even with that there would be no 4-chan return signal, since I have yet to work with a camera that will allow it. I have been thinking about getting a 6-chan Nomad, send four channels to camera, while also record 4 isos on the Nomad though, that would work.

However, like you mentione in your last bit, the problem is to get people to pay for the added cost. "People in charge" have a tendecy to not understand the difference these things can make to a production, vs "the cheapest sound package from our local dealer". Or maybe they don't want to understand.

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Or maybe they don't want to understand.

We have to teach them.

I'm doing the "Kniven mot strupen" (Swedish "Kitchen Nightmares") Right now and I had some complaints and remarks about the equipment they basically forced on me. I got to struggle a lot to get my demands through, but I did it. Phew.

And I did it through making friends with the DP, and the director. Then go to the production, tell them what WE feel. And then the production can tell the contractors to get US the stuff that WE need. :) Worked for me.

OT:

I'm also thinking about the Nomad. We should put some pressure on SoundWare to get them.. I talked to Markus over there and he couldn't give me a straight answer on when they get them... and it doesn't seem like they want to tell the customers it's coming so...

OP:

Maybe an external device on the camera could do the trick... Like the MixPre-D. With the 552 you could plug the A output in the rear, the Mixpre goes in the front, and the output B from 552 goes to the MixPre... I dunno. Sounds like a big snake.

Nomad (or other multitrack recorders/mixers) IS the way to go. We can't have producers and/or editors demanding us to monitor four iso channels on a device that we don't even carry ourselves, that's just insane...

And BTW, the Nomad 8 is 41000 SEK (ex VAT). Not expensive to me if you think about the perks.

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We have to teach them.

Believe me, I try to all the time. And it allways starts off with "The sound is very important for us on this show...", but usually ends with "But thats gonna cost us more money, right? No thanks, this gear worked on the last show we did, we'll stick with that." Or "The other sound guy didn't complain...".

And yeah, befriending the DPs, like you said, is usually a plus. There's defenetly strength in numbers. "Ask the Dp if he would rather be tethered or wireless to me, running through a large crowd of people."

OT:

I'm also thinking about the Nomad. We should put some pressure on SoundWare to get them.. I talked to Markus over there and he couldn't give me a straight answer on when they get them... and it doesn't seem like they want to tell the customers it's coming so...

Thanks, I didn't even know about that site. Ive mostly been ordering gear from abroad, since the market is so limited here. I'll send him a message, would be nice to have some sort of dealer close by.

OP:

Maybe an external device on the camera could do the trick... Like the MixPre-D. With the 552 you could plug the A output in the rear, the Mixpre goes in the front, and the output B from 552 goes to the MixPre... I dunno. Sounds like a big snake.

Nomad (or other multitrack recorders/mixers) IS the way to go. We can't have producers and/or editors demanding us to monitor four iso channels on a device that we don't even carry ourselves, that's just insane...

And BTW, the Nomad 8 is 41000 SEK (ex VAT). Not expensive to me if you think about the perks.

Yeah, maybe you guys are right, better go dual system. I just think it would be so nice if I could crack that nut of 4-chan on camera, since I get so many requests from post about it. Doesn't seam like I will though.

No, I totally agree that the Nomad is worth every penny and more with its design and functions, but I'm not gonna spend that kind of money if Im not sure I'll earn it back. Right now I'm almost strugling getting a fair deal for my 302-package cause the rental houses "throws in the audio kit at half price" with many camera rentals. But I'd definitly love to have that Nomad.

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And "sound is very important to us" is a common misconception. Sound in TV is PARAMOUNT! Picture is totally unusable without sound, even more so in TV than film. So we are just as important, if not more, as the camera(s).

added:

And only we are the experts of what we do. I hate the fact that producers look on us like we're grumpy old guys wanting only the finest gear and the most expensive mics. We need our shit to work, just as much as the cameras. If they want 4 channels they come to us and ask us for a solution and we give our advise. And they think it's okay to just dismiss that knowledge and advise? Why? That's when we get grumpy. At least me.

On my show now we got the gopro hero2 cameras all over the place, and I'll bet $100 editors gonna say "hey we don't hear the sound on these cams" and production will go nuts saying "where's the sound!?" . Sigh...

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