480sound Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Can a BWF, with Time Code be treated just like a Wave file without Time Code? Yes it can. But, if a BWF file is created with the wrong Time Code can it still be synced to a picture file in an editing program like FInal Cut? Such as ignoring the Time Code and just syncing manually to the Slate clap. Does the Time Code frame rate effect the actual “clocking” or “speed” of the recording making it impossible to match to a picture recorded with a different Time Code? Can an audio track be re-striped with new Time Code? T h a n k s for y o u r help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 ...if a BWF file is created with the wrong Time Code can it still be synced to a picture file in an editing program like FInal Cut? Such as ignoring the Time Code and just syncing manually to the Slate clap. It can. It's a real pain in the ass, but it can be done. All it takes is time. Utilities like Plural Eyes can do this quickly, provided the digital cameras have some kind of scratch track. Does the Time Code frame rate affect the actual “clocking” or “speed” of the recording making it impossible to match to a picture recorded with a different Time Code? If it's done at a different frame rate -- say, 24.00fps instead of 23.98fps -- then sound will drift a couple of frames a minute. Utilities like Wave Agent can do this to a point, but unless the timecode relates to picture in some way, it's all kind of dubious. If the sound and picture are at least going at the right speed, then I would just ignore the sound timecode and sync it all manually. You figure, it was done this way for about 60 years in the analog/mag days (and prior to Nagra timecode). --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfisk Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 If you have timecode that is a different frame rate, you can use a free program called soundhack to change the frame rate of the timecode. I've done this a few times and saved a lot of people a lot of headache. Everyone should have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Does the Time Code frame rate effect the actual “clocking” or “speed” of the recording making it impossible to match to a picture recorded with a different Time Code? Can an audio track be re-striped with new Time Code? T h a n k s for y o u r help. The timecode on a BWF file does not affect the speed of the audio. So yes, the file can still be synced and run in perfect sync, assuming that other parameters are correct (namely sampling freq of the recording, and setup of the playback device). Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kurland Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Keep in mind that a wav or bwf file does not actually have any timecode on it. Just a stamp at the beginning of how many samples past midnight at the start point. There are also tags defining the intended TC rate and sampling rate. You can change these tags in Wave Agent or other software, as well as the start time. (Since the timecode is calculated from samples, a change in sampling rate will also change the start time unless the software is smart enough to compensate. Wave Agent offers that as a choice.) So, you CAN change the start time of the code, and its speed, without affecting anything else. And you CAN sync by eye to a clapper ignoring the code. In fact, in my opinion, this is the best way to get accurate sync. Many editors and transfer houses do this even with good matching timecode. They just use the timecode to get close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Usually the main obstacle to getting this to work are the project settings in Final Cut. If the editor can get FCP to ignore the TC frame rate of the imported audio then it just plays back as a normal wav file, and be manually synced. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 " at a different frame rate -- say, 24.00fps instead of 23.98fps -- then sound will drift a couple of frames a minute. " and most professional audio p[rograms allow you to compensate for the .1% speed variation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bondelev Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Does the Time Code frame rate effect the actual “clocking” or “speed” of the recording No, the time code does not affect the speed of playback. It is simply a numbering system for each picture frame. The clock is set by the sampling rate. However, if you change the speed of the picture (via telecine) or the sampling rate of the audio (via pull-down) then there will be a speed change. If you were not shooting film, this will probably not be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 I think in a file-based situation, you can process the file any way you want to force it to stay in sync. I'm coming from a background of having to deal with balky DVD-RAMs and DAT tapes in telecine, trying to get them to sync up with 23.976fps film. When the timecode is permanently imbedded this way (even if it's just time-stamped on the first frame), you can't easily force the machine to play the material back at the right speed. We have encountered disastrous post sessions where sound was recorded in the field at 48.048 and shouldn't have been, or it was done at 48K when it should've been at 48.048. Those were bad days. For that, all you can do is drop them into Pro Tools and figure out the right combination of sampling frequency and timecode. If you're importing files into an editing system, you have a lot more options available to you. But I think anything you do will make the sound timecode no longer agree with the slate, meaning you'll have to manually sync-up the claps. It's not that big a deal, but nothing is as good as getting it right the first time. As The Senator has often said, "a workflow test done prior to the shoot is always a good idea." --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 But very careful with FCP input settings re TC, it is pretty easy to import audio that has TC metadata and have the system play it back at the wrong speed because it think it should be doing a pull down. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Guys & gals, I've tried searching but to no avail... is there an existing thread for something to the extent of: TimeCode 101? I am really trying to wrap my brain around this, and would love a kind of TC master class / thread to read. I have the basics down (I think), but I'm new enough at this that I definitely still have questions. Any thread suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 There are some write-ups here that I, and others, have done about various aspects of time code. A lot of what you're looking for is covered in a variety of threads but you'll need to do some searching. Hint: To search on a term like time code with the words separated by a space, use quote marks in your search, such as: "time code" I'd recommend trying it both as one word and two. The same thing with the term non-drop (with, and without, the hyphen). (Happy Holidays, everyone.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 A good start would be Wolf Seeburg's book on Sync and Timecode. I think it is still available but I don't know where. Here is a link to a .pdf but I believe it is only excerpts from the full book/pamphlet, and may not be totally up to date. LINK to .pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gilchrist Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 A good start would be Wolf Seeburg's book on Sync and Timecode. I think it is still available but I don't know where. Here is a link to a .pdf but I believe it is only excerpts from the full book/pamphlet, and may not be totally up to date. LINK to .pdf As would fellow member Jim Tanenbaum's "Timecode in the Reel World." It's old but covers the basics. Read it first and them read the latest edition of Wolf's book. Best regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 I would submit that the most important thing to know about TC as it relates to production sound anymore is what Mr. Bondelevitch says--essentially that what determines the playback "speed" of the file is it's record sample rate vs the playback sample rate, and all the TC does is number the frames. There is no "TC track", just a start TC value that tells the playback what time to start counting at at the beginning of that file. The pretzel in all this is Final Cut's helpful habit of assuming that any audio file with a TC different than the established project TC is intended be "pulled" up or down in speed. This feature alone has caused more headaches than any other single factor in the current workflows used on jobs I do. You have to help train your posties to take those FCP project settings very seriously. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 Thank you all so much. I'll get Jim Tanenbaum's book, and will read the PDF provided by Jeff. I really appreciate the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 A google search of "time code" yeilds 331 million hits, and a bunch of really good ones on the first page. SMPTE time code is what we use in movies-TV world, and there is time code film .... give it another try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.279748a58a2b862b7aa5f3b84126e232.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.