744T and accepted settings/methods

[Rachel Cameron]

Hi again soundfolk,

I just received my 744T (my 442 is on the way too)!

It's the first TC recorder I've had and and I'm psyched! Production on a little indy film helped me afford it (plus a bunch of other goodies), and principal photography is four days away.

I'm sure the 744T user group has generally settled on common settings and methods for many of the things we do with them. I'd like to ask how you may set certain user functions and other settings on it..perhaps which ones maybe most important...what strange behavior I should beware of, perhaps some of the unorthodox settings that have worked out problems?

My first question is:

744T File: Folder Options ~ How do you like to organize the folder/files? IE: For this film should I make the Top Level file "The Name Of The Film", and then the Mid Level folder automatically becomes my daily folder? Does it work that way? I'm not sure about that part.

A second nebulous issue...

Compact Flash Cards: At the advice of the group, I could hand them off for upload to the production Mac as we move through the shooting day, keeping every file backed up on the HDD (and maybe an external FW drive), if I understood correctly. Is this a good work flow? If so, how many cards and what size would I need to avoid log jamming the system at the upload end? What size cards do you like/purchase? I went to Office Despot and picked a few compact flash cards ~ a 4gb Lexar and an 8gb Sandisk.

I'll be living here for the next few days...

Many humble thanks,

Rachel

[Jaymz]

I'm in the 4th week of my first feature using a 744t/552 setup.

Pretty much everything you've mentioned is how I've done it. Top-Level is "Name of Film", then mid-level is set to "Daily" which automatically creates a daily folder each day (when the date changes, it will ask you if you want to make a new one).

Recording to the INHDD and a CF card, which I give to the data lad at the end of each day for transfer to the company HD's.

[ProSound]

Your on the right track with everything your folder choices are good.

For CF cards I have been using transcend card 32gb 400X cards for a long time never had any issue with up to 10 tracks on my 788T. So when your ready for larger cards consider them.

http://www.amazon.com/Transcend-Compact-Flash-Card-400X/dp/B002WE4H8I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1319409851&sr=8-2

[Philip Perkins]

My advice is to really read the manual and interact with the machine. The 744 is surprisingly versatile, re input, track and output routing on its various buses, and can really do a lot for you if get used to how that all works.

phil p

[RPSharman]

I really love my 744T. It was the first machine I bought when I moved up to mixing, and has performed flawlessly.

In terms of work flow on longer projects, I find that roll # is the only folder I need. Name of show doesn't really matter (except on episodic TV, I put the show and episode # as the first folder, as we may jump around between episodes). Most data wranglers on set create their own daily folders, which includes one for sound, then they either drop the roll folder there, or more often than not just copy the audio files there. The folders then only become useful to you in your archive. If you are on a show without said person to turn in flash card to, then a DVD-RAM is usually turned in for dailies, although many here shuttle CF in those cases too. In this instance, there are issues with some Fostex post machines for telecine/transfer which require a folder (or require no folder - someone help me here) - It's been a while since I have had to worry about this, and I have tragically forgotten. Sad.

As long as you are consistent, then you will be ok!

I have used Kingston Elite Pro 133x 4GB flash cards for many years. They are inexpensive and reliable. You can own lots of them, and not stress if one goes missing for a bit (or permanently).

Robert

[Rachel Cameron]

Thanks guys..great information. For the next four days, I'm doing exactly that ~ completely reading the manual, digging around in the menu, rolling record. I need to still transfer some files to my mac, I guess..and delete, rename and move some.

Yes, the menu is vast. Some of those settings in there, I barely understand, but can usually study and figure it out. The rest I'll probably have to ask about.

Like...what's better for shooting in HD? 24/48 or 48/96? What is generally accepted? I know at some point the difference becomes 'not so noticable', and I guess the latter will eat more CF or HDD space. But what do editors and sound mixers usually agree on?

The manual is awesome, but I really appreciate all for your words on accepted practices and stuff. It sorta puts the final touches on my confidence with this new recorder.

Thanks for the boost.

Rachel

[ProSound]

Like...what's better for shooting in HD? 24/48 or 48/96? What is generally accepted? I know at some point the difference becomes 'not so noticable', and I guess the latter will eat more CF or HDD space. But what do editors and sound mixers usually agree on?

Rachel

24bit 48K always and as far as timecode always check with post and get it in writing your most common timecode choices will be 29.97 and 23.976

[carbonhobbit]

I would have at lease four 8 G cards since 8g's will handle most days. If your shooting with an HD camera, tc set to 23.976 with 24 bit and 48k being the standards for audio. Learn about naming your tracks and downloading wave agent to help with making electronic sound reports. Also learn about arming which tracks you need. If not using a track, saves space on CF and hard drive. Ask if they want poly or mono files. Learn well in the next four days.

Scott.....

[ProSound]

If your shooting with an HD camera, tc set to 23.976

Not always true if someone is shooting 24 or 24P there are other choices. Also some HD workflows have audio at 29.97.

Ask if they want poly or mono files.

99 percent of the time it will be poly files though I can't think of a good reason to provide mono files

[carbonhobbit]

So the answer is; ask post and camera how they want it set up and get it in writing.

Tongue in check: turn on machine, plug in inputs, hit record. With all the different programs out there, you can change any time code into some other, make a poly into a mono and vis-versa. And with plur eyes you can sync almost anything.

Learn the why and how this all goes together and it makes every bodies lives easier and faster.

Just for the record, my 744t has been set on 23.976, 24/48 poly for over a year and has yet to change. Film died here with most projects using either Red's or 5D's with a few other cameras thrown into the mix.

Scott.....

[Rachel Cameron]

Thanks, those are all great suggestions. Please keep them coming. My brain doesn't hurt quite yet.

Oh! Which way does time code get jammed, usually? From the 744T to the camera, or vice versa?

I just downloaded Wave Agent. That's next.

[RPSharman]

Rachel,

May I suggest just keeping it simple.

It is 99% certain you will use 23.98 TC, 24 bit, 48k. Unless you are shooting film.

Record a mono mix to track 1 and route your ISO tracks to 2-4. Or another choice, if you are using a boom and 3 wires, is to not really offer a mix, but send boom to track 1 and wires to 2-4.

I would not suggest any sort of track naming, metadata, etc. Keep a hand-written sound report with any critical information.

If you're new to the game, you should concentrate on the sound, and not all the other bits. You can choose to do that stuff after you get a few jobs under your belt.

Robert

[JonO]

<div>

With all the different programs out there, you can change any time code into some other, make a poly into a mono and vis-versa. And with plur eyes you can sync almost anything.

</div>

<p>Wow, bad advice. There are some cameras that need a 29.98 workflow even though they are shooting 23.98 (IE: a lot of Panasonics). Also, it's not as easy as just changing the frame rate in Wave Agent- especially if you have been jamming slates, cameras, and/ or timecode boxes all day to a different frame rate. </p>

<div>

<br />

<p> </p>

<p>Oh! Which way does time code get jammed, usually? From the 744T to the camera, or vice versa?

</p>

<p>You will be the master timecode, therefore you will be jamming the cameras. Supplying the timecode is usually the sound department's job as your clock will be the most reliable and accurate. Most camera's ( other than the Alexa apparantly) timecode drifts after a couple hours or less.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Most likely, you will be running a 23.98 timecode, but keep in mind- on a lot of Panasonic cameras- you will need to run 29.98 to have them accept the jam even if they are shooting 24p. </p>

</div>

[Rachel Cameron]

I agree Robert, yes I won't worry about meta data or U-bits or naming too many things. I'm a bit concerned that I'll not be consistent from the first day on all the little file naming details, and I want that kind of consistency, even if it's just default names, given by the 744T.

I printed up some sound logs that are fine. I also have the audio post person there as utility. He will help me keep the logs straight, circle takes and make problem notations (for use later).

I'm going to try not to use any hard wire lavs, if possible. I offered them if we get in a pinch, but I have a good boom op and a very understanding, and flexible DP. He said that he's not going to shoot singles of everything, so I suggested that we get the wild lines to keep the audio consistent for off camera delivery. Is that a good idea? The opposite of MOS, ha!

In the main scene of the film (and the body of the principal shooting), there are three people sitting around an interrogation table and a detective circling asking questions. I guess I have to hardwire the three and have the boom op follow the detective for the master shot, and push for clean lines on everything else with the 416? I hate to use lavs (TR-50, TR-79) when the boom sounds so good.

I guess my new question is: Shouldn't we always strive to boom something, rather than rely on lav's? Especially for things 'not tv'? For me it's hit or miss with lavs, for all sorts of factors, like fabric sounds and stuff like that...

[Rachel Cameron]

<div></div>

You will be the master timecode, therefore you will be jamming the cameras. Supplying the timecode is usually the sound department's job as your clock will be the most reliable and accurate. Most camera's ( other than the Alexa apparantly) timecode drifts after a couple hours or less. Most likely, you will be running a 23.98 timecode, but keep in mind- on a lot of Panasonic cameras- you will need to run 29.98 to have them accept the jam even if they are shooting 24p.

</div>

Thanks JonO. Makes sense, and I'll check the camera model.

[Marc Wielage]

My advice is to really read the manual and interact with the machine. The 744 is surprisingly versatile, re input, track and output routing on its various buses, and can really do a lot for you if get used to how that all works.

Very wise words. I would take an entire day, sit down (uninterrupted) and go through every single page of the manual and check each setting on the menus and know what they are and what they do. Make sure you create enough headphone presets to handle every potential situation for monitoring. Sound Devices also has a great web forum and toll-free tech support -- (800) 505-0625. And SD manuals are known for their clarity and straightforwardness.

I would keep the whole file folder thing very simple and logical, based on feedback from the post department. I do try to get the metadata right, provided it doesn't slow down the production. If it's a run & gun situation, it may well not be possible, but if it's a sit-down in a studio, then it's not that hard -- you can get very fast on the little SD click-knob when you get used to it.

In the main scene of the film (and the body of the principal shooting)' date=' there are three people sitting around an interrogation table and a detective circling asking questions. I guess I have to hardwire the three and have the boom op follow the detective for the master shot, and push for clean lines on everything else with the 416? I hate to use lavs (TR-50, TR-79) when the boom sounds so good.[/quote']

Wired lavs may seem like a good idea in theory, but there's always the problem of tripping up actors who spontaneously move. Wireless lavs will give you much more flexibility, but are yet another factor to worry about. Lav mounts have been discussed many times in previous posts; do a search and you'll find them. A lot depends on wardrobe choice and positioning. Test beforehand and investigate the "double-stick tape triangle" trick. Often, it's trial and error, just nailing everything down until there's minimal fabric movement over skin (and the mike is well-insulated).

Lavs and the boom can work together or separately depending on the situation. I would coordinate with the director and script supervisor to find a way to break up the coverage so that all of the dialog is handled in singles if you want to try to get them all on the boom. Make sure the editor is on the same page in terms of dialog editing and coverage. Do a test beforehand to make sure everything will sync up correctly.

--Marc W.

[Rick Cardone]

"Wow, bad advice. There are some cameras that need a 29.98 workflow even though they are shooting 23.98"

I've never heard of 29.98 timecode. 29.97 yes. Is this an audio timecode that video and post calls something else? Or is a Panasonic thing?

[Rachel Cameron]

"Wow, bad advice. There are some cameras that need a 29.98 workflow even though they are shooting 23.98"

I've never heard of 29.98 timecode. 29.97 yes. Is this an audio timecode that video and post calls something else? Or is a Panasonic thing?

Yes, I wondered if it was something with the Varicams or the P2 format...

R

[JonO]

Its 29.97- just a typo

[John Blankenship]

Yes, I wondered if it was something with the Varicams or the P2 format...

Nope! The only way that 29.98 exists is with a mis-adjusted time code generator. The O.P. no doubt means 29.97. The confusion comes from some people trying to shorthand 23.976 to 23.98.

It's simple math -- both rates are a tenth of a percent slower than the rate they're based on. i.e. .999 x 30 = 29.97 fps and .999 x 24 = 23.976.

So, to recap, 23.98 is shorthand for 23.976 and neither 23.98 nor 29.98 are actual time code rates.

Never fear, no matter how simple something is there are those who will go out of their way to complicate it.

[RPSharman]

And your 744T will display 23.97 for 23.976, to add to your confusion.

[Rachel Cameron]

I'm reading about mid/side choices on the 744T...and phasing problems. Phase is greek to me. I hope I don't set this up for M/S.

If so, will I experience phase problems with three lavs seated around a table and a talent/boom circling the table delivering/getting that dialogue?

I'm using positive bias TR-50's (if I have to use them at all), and an MKH 416T.

I've the director and camera on the same page that we must break them up so there's no overlapping dialogue, but I really don't want to record this like reality tv, with three lavs, and four full tracks (possibly introducing phase problems, too?) on and lit up, right out of the gate. Not that I can't do it..but it's my reluctance to veer away from the ehh...presence? footprint? timbre? of the 416.

Conversely, I wondered if the room sound would 'pile up' with tracks A,B,C, and D all having the same room feel from the 416 presence in the background. I.E. Perhaps three TR-50 lavs (re: the interrogation scene, above post) might bring a tighter, more intimate presence to the mix, and one 416 track (following the detective) would capture enough room feel?

Does this make any sense? Maybe I'm just over thinking the mic presence stuff. :\

[Rachel Cameron]

And your 744T will display 23.97 for 23.976, to add to your confusion.

ugh..

[John Blankenship]

ugh..

Not a big deal as long as you know what it actually means.

[RPSharman]

I'm reading about mid/side and phasing problems. Phase is greek to me.

Will I experience phase problems with three lavs seated around a table and a talent/boom circling the table delivering/getting that dialogue?

I'm using positive bias TR-50's (if I have to use them at all), and an MKH 416T.

I've the director and camera on the same page that we must break them up so there's no overlapping dialogue, but I really don't want to record this like reality tv, with three lavs, and four full tracks (possibly introducing phase problems, too?) on and lit up, right out of the gate. Not that I can't do it..but it's my reluctance to veer away from the ehh...presence? footprint? timbre? of the 416.

Conversely, I wondered if the room sound would 'pile up' with tracks A,B,C, and D all having the same room feel from the 416 presence in the background. I.E. Perhaps three TR-50 lavs (re: the interrogation scene, above post) might bring a tighter, more intimate presence to the mix, and one 416 track (following the detective) would capture enough room feel?

Does this make any sense? Maybe I'm just over thinking the mic presence stuff. :\

If you're worried, lav the seated actors and record their ISO to tracks 2-4. Boom the scene and record it to track one. Don't mix in the lavs. You can listen back to the tracks to make sure they're clean. This way, post can remix, if they choose, and there will be no worries about phasing which can't be solved on their end.

The trick is to balance the perspective of the person standing with the people sitting for your master and wider shots, which will be your boom op's job.