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Red Epic


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56 replies to this topic

#1
johnpaul215

johnpaul215
  • LocationPhiladelphia - PA - USA
So there was an Epic thread in the Equipment category, but it seemed to wander off course... and we have this fancy Camera section!

I have a few questions...
How loud is the fan with the latest firmware? It's Fall here, the shoot will be in a house that has heat, but probably will be fairly cool. The story takes place in winter, and the cast will be wearing winter clothing (NE USA Winter, not LA Winter :) )

So the TC input really is a 4-pin Lemo... Is that something I can get made by a usual suspect? I don't think the camera department has any kind of adapter. I want to go BNC->Epic (feeding TC from an SB-3 to the camera)

I was told they have, or will have, one of these XLR->Epic adapters http://www.woodencam...ox-epic-scarlet
I think I'm going to use my usual RED One setup of a scratch feed via G2... which coincidentally comes with a minijack output cable. Hopefully that will work, and reduce camera clutter.
DP and the Director were very happy to have wireless scratch audio. I didn't get into the gritty details about adapters with them.

Anything else I should know as of the current firmware?

Thanks!

johnpaul golaski - Philadelphia PA USA - www.JOHNPAUL215.com
FCC LP Call Sign WQQM443


#2
Jim Gilchrist

Jim Gilchrist
  • LocationMid-Atlantic

So there was an Epic thread in the Equipment category, but it seemed to wander off course... and we have this fancy Camera section!

I have a few questions...
So the TC input really is a 4-pin Lemo... Is that something I can get made by a usual suspect? I don't think the camera department has any kind of adapter. I want to go BNC->Epic (feeding TC from an SB-3 to the camera)

Anything else I should know as of the current firmware?

Thanks!

It's an available accessory from RED. It's also easily made by somebody not afraid of 00 Lemo connectors.

And somewhere in the new firmware, there's something that will bite us on the butt.......
Best regards,
Jim

#3
johnpaul215

johnpaul215
  • LocationPhiladelphia - PA - USA
Thanks Jim,
I don't think I want RED's Lemo to triple BNC breakout for this. (Fortunately) it's a single camera shoot. I'd prefer a simple single cable.
Maybe I'll order some Lemo plugs, though they are pretty expensive. A custom cable is not too much more than the bits. I'm impressed how inexpensively I have gotten TC cables made up.

Can the new firmware play breakout? It's not in the firmware on my Delvcam monitor and I'm bummed.

johnpaul golaski - Philadelphia PA USA - www.JOHNPAUL215.com
FCC LP Call Sign WQQM443


#4
Jim Gilchrist

Jim Gilchrist
  • LocationMid-Atlantic
Call Bruce Tharp at Vark Audio next week. He can make you what you need exactly to your specs. And a day away from Philadelphia via UPS ground.
Best regards,
Jim

#5
Steve Joachim

Steve Joachim
  • LocationLos Angeles, Ca
LSC has a 2ft Epic T/C-In cable in stock. $84.95

SJ
Steve Joachim
Sales Manager / Employee Owner
Location Sound Corp.
818-980-9891 x302

#6
Rick Albright

Rick Albright
  • LocationFairfield, CT
Worked with that Camera last week, but not sure which firmware it had. Why did they have to change the lemo connector ? The camera dept. had a sync cable that was the triple bnc to Lemo. I feed code down the bnc which had a white band on it from my SB-3, and the camera locked up fine. The code seemed to hold for quite a long time- 4 to 5 hours.
As for the fan, you can adjust the "percentage of running" while the camera is in record. The lowest we could get was 35%, which was not too bad as long as the camera was not right on top of the actors. It sounded like a blow dryer before we adjusted it.
Fed the camera a scratch track with a Comtek thru one of the Mini connectors ( another great idea ) which sounded quite awful. Could never get the headphone out to work. Don't know if that was a firmware deal or not. And there was no playback on the camera...seems like it needs a few updates.
Good luck, Rick

#7
johngooch

johngooch
Mini cables should be taped down. My experience was that my minis were awfully easy to pull out of their sockets.Using their standard triple bnc cable is not a bad idea if you want to feed word/genlock as well as TC.  And camera should buy that cable. Cmon- this is a totally industry non-standard cable that can not be used again by another camera.

Knowing this- i'll probably place an order for one of these cables next week......

I've had varied experience with the fan issue. I find many DPs afraid to take the fans to their lowest setting. On one shoot when doing long takes, the camera more than once busted a take by changing to higher fan setting because it was overheating. 20-30 min takes in an air conditioned environment. Possible the camera was not setup properly but not likely.
John Gooch CAS
Philadelphia PA

jgoochmixer@mac.com
www.wallingfordsound.com

#8
RPSharman

RPSharman
  • LocationCambridge - UK
Why can't we say, "Your choices are setting the fan low and cutting between takes, like the old days, or keeping rolling 20-minute takes and fucking up your sound track."

#9
Rob Lewis

Rob Lewis
  • LocationSomewhere between Cleveland & Pittsburgh
Toy cameras, when will they learn.
Rob Lewis
www.lewisproaudio.com
FCC WQSX650

#10
Tony Johnson

Tony Johnson

So there was an Epic thread in the Equipment category, but it seemed to wander off course... and we have this fancy Camera section!

I have a few questions...
How loud is the fan with the latest firmware? It's Fall here, the shoot will be in a house that has heat, but probably will be fairly cool. The story takes place in winter, and the cast will be wearing winter clothing (NE USA Winter, not LA

Thanks!


I have been working with these cameras for nearly a year now and with the new firmware . We are using them in a 3D rig so my scenario will be worse than yours . In a quiet interior the fans would be noticeable when the camera is less than 2.5 feet from the mic / actor obviously depending on the dial level , this would be average conversational level . The new firmware allows the cams to run at a lower fan speed than the 45% speed with the old firmware , but only if you don't shoot "rolling resets" where you shoot out an entire 128gig card , then the cams get too hot and need the 45% fan speed . So it seems that as Red improve the heat sinks and cooling system to allow the cams to run quieter , the directors want to shoot longer which takes us back to square one .
In summary close and wide lenses with whispered dial will be a major but we have had very few times on this movie where cam fans have caused ADR , although there have been a few .
Good luck

Tony Johnson

#11
gpiegari

gpiegari
  • LocationRichmond, VA
I have been fortunate enough that the Epic packages I had
to feed had the supplied 4-pin lemo breakout for TC and clock.
It has worked fine.
The mini-jack mic inputs have been a bit of an issue.
One camera had a jack that really wanted to push the plug back out.
Probably a simple defect and it was solved with tape.

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but the input is still mic level only.

Glen
________________________________
Glen Piegari

#12
johnpaul215

johnpaul215
  • LocationPhiladelphia - PA - USA

Why did they have to change the lemo connector ?

It is kind of odd they did this. The Epic/Scarlet has pins for TC, genlock, trigger and ground.
The traditional/standard 5-pin Lemo is this: http://www.sounddevi...ecorders/lemo5/

So does the Epic only accept TC input, or do you flip the direction of that pin in a menu setting? I am looking through the manual and I take the wording to imply it is only a TC input. I never wanted a TC output on a RED, but I bet somebody has. The only TC output seems to be as part of the HDMI output.

I know these guys don't have the Lemo cable. The DP seemed surprised to hear they switched to a 4 pin Lemo, and made some comment about how much he has spent on custom TC cables for his previous RED One jobs. He did order those XLR adapters, but they are just XLR to minijack. I was under the impression that the RED Pro I/O Box (or whatever it is called) uses a different connection to give you 4 analog inputs via XLR, digital inputs, bla bla bla.

Glen - I wasn't sure if it was still only mic level. I am under the impression that will eventually change with firmware (or the I/O module). Thanks for that confirmation. The G2 can easily do both. In my experience, the RED One sounded much better at line level, so that would have been my first attempt.

John Gooch - good to know. I'll *probably* use the minijack cable from a G2, and that has a right angle end. Should be easier to tape down.

Fortunately the 1st AC is a good friend of mine that I know from years of working together. I know he will do whatever he can to be of assistance. This camera body is so much smaller that I hope we can hid my gadgets out of the way. Definite argument for switching to a Zaxcom IFB so I could send mix and TC in one little box.

johnpaul golaski - Philadelphia PA USA - www.JOHNPAUL215.com
FCC LP Call Sign WQQM443


#13
studiomprd

studiomprd
  • LocationHollywood CA
" I don't think the camera department has any kind of adapter. "
The should (if TC is desired)
" And camera should buy that cable. "
well, at least furnish it. If sound needs to supply one, I'd make it a billable expendable!
SENATOR Mike Michaels, c.a.s.
Studio M Productions

#14
Olle Sjostrom

Olle Sjostrom
  • LocationStockholm, Sweden
It's interesting that every time a new camera surfaces there's something new and annoying about it. Why can't the industry just set standards? The only real standard is the tripod thread ring for DSLR-type cameras...

But on the bright side, now I can say to producers who want to shoot on the epic: "There's no possible way of TC so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please"
http://www.tjockishjartafilm.se

#15
studiomprd

studiomprd
  • LocationHollywood CA
" so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please "
I'll be waiting to hear about when production choses it camera based on what sound wants and needs...(Sorry, I won't be holding my breath!)
At least in the past, using light sensitive, chemical emulsion film, any proper production insured that they had a sync-sound camera if they planned to capture sync-sound!!
SENATOR Mike Michaels, c.a.s.
Studio M Productions

#16
Olle Sjostrom

Olle Sjostrom
  • LocationStockholm, Sweden

" so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please "
I'll be waiting to hear about when production choses it camera based on what sound wants and needs...(Sorry, I won't be holding my breath!)
At least in the past, using light sensitive, chemical emulsion film, any proper production insured that they had a sync-sound camera if they planned to capture sync-sound!!

The Aaton cameras are really silent. Even says on their website "Production sound friendly" Brings tears to my eyes every time.
http://www.tjockishjartafilm.se

#17
johnpaul215

johnpaul215
  • LocationPhiladelphia - PA - USA

" so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please " I'll be waiting to hear about when production choses it camera based on what sound wants and needs...(Sorry, I won't be holding my breath!) At least in the past, using light sensitive, chemical emulsion film, any proper production insured that they had a sync-sound camera if they planned to capture sync-sound!!


I don't care as much about how the camera records sound, but if the camera is so loud that it might force ADR, that's an entirely different issue. They picked the camera before they picked me, so that's that.

It's interesting that every time a new camera surfaces there's something new and annoying about it. Why can't the industry just set standards? The only real standard is the tripod thread ring for DSLR-type cameras... But on the bright side, now I can say to producers who want to shoot on the epic: "There's no possible way of TC so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please"


Why not a sync box with a newfangled Lemo4 cable? If production didn't want (to pay) a sync box on the Red One, somebody was syncing to the slate. I did that quite a few times. Heck, them not paying for sync boxes makes less work for the camera and sound departments.

johnpaul golaski - Philadelphia PA USA - www.JOHNPAUL215.com
FCC LP Call Sign WQQM443


#18
johnpaul215

johnpaul215
  • LocationPhiladelphia - PA - USA

The Aaton cameras are really silent. Even says on their website "Production sound friendly" Brings tears to my eyes every time.


I have not done a lot with the Alexa, and it wasn't in hot summer situations, but it was great.

johnpaul golaski - Philadelphia PA USA - www.JOHNPAUL215.com
FCC LP Call Sign WQQM443


#19
Olle Sjostrom

Olle Sjostrom
  • LocationStockholm, Sweden


I have not done a lot with the Alexa, and it wasn't in hot summer situations, but it was great.


The Alexa rocks when the fans are off. When it goes on it's clearly audible. But still not anywhere near the hell buzz of red one.

Will be working with the epic on Monday. I warned production manager about the fans. She replied: no that can't be true! Dslr-cams don't have them do why would a red!?

I raised my rate and rental and will say: "told you so" in editing
http://www.tjockishjartafilm.se

#20
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA
Somebody should do a YouTube video and show the various digital cameras in a quiet studio, and then hold a SPL Meter next to them and show exactly how much noise they really make.

--Marc W.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#21
Wandering Ear

Wandering Ear
  • LocationSeattle
On all the epic shoots I've done, I've always requested that camera department supply the RED 3D cable, which is the lemo 4 pin to 3 BNC cable. If my memory is correct, White is TC, Green is Genlock. On a recent 2 camera epic shoot, I had one camera that worked great with a lockit box feeding TC and genlock, and the second camera would take TC, but wouldn't accept Genlock. I believe they were running different firmware versions, but I didn't have time to verify.
I generally like to own all the necessary cables I might need for a job, but I haven't committed to making this one yet, not sure if I will. It's too specific, and the productions I work on won't pay extra for it, so my solution is to require them to supply it, or sync via slate or plural eyes. Their choice.

I find the fans, even on the lowest rolling settings to be obtrusive quite often depending on the situation, but just as frustrating is the fans in standby are often so loud that I can't track down existing noise problems in a location until the camera rolls, and it's obviously too late then. New challenges every day. That's why I love this job.
Call sign: WQSC710
http://wanderingear.net

#22
Olle Sjostrom

Olle Sjostrom
  • LocationStockholm, Sweden
I did an Epic (not very Epic in any other way tho) shoot yesterday. Luckily, we were in an extremely noisy environment so I never got to hear the fans. Once or twice I snuck in close with the boom to hear them, and to me they didn't sound that loud, not louder than the Red One anyway. But I'm sure when push comes to shove the Epic is gonna shove it even harder.

But, I never want to work with it again. I have never seen such an agitated DP before. He was annoyed at everything this camera did, how it was built, how it performed.. My god. If you want to make any changes on the camera, you have to plug in the LCD screen. The LCD screen and the viewfinder can not be plugged in simultaneously. WHAT!? Fudged.

And, there are even less mounting options for a hop! There's nowhere to put anything! We had to put my G2 on a hair tuft (you know the thing girls wear in their hair to keep it from being beautiful) and hang it on the battery. Fudged. And don't get me started on their menu UI... the levels don't even show on the screen where you set the levels... what's up with that?

The rental house even sent a complimentary RED One body, just in case. :) Funny.

We didn't use TC at all actually. There was however a standard 5-pin lemo to 4-pin lemo cable supplied. I just think it's weird they actually went to change their connectors...
http://www.tjockishjartafilm.se

#23
johnpaul215

johnpaul215
  • LocationPhiladelphia - PA - USA

I find the fans, even on the lowest rolling settings to be obtrusive quite often depending on the situation, but just as frustrating is the fans in standby are often so loud that I can't track down existing noise problems in a location until the camera rolls, and it's obviously too late then. New challenges every day. That's why I love this job.


That was always a major issue I had with the RED One. It would even mask something like a refrigerator, or HVAC, that was turned back on.

johnpaul golaski - Philadelphia PA USA - www.JOHNPAUL215.com
FCC LP Call Sign WQQM443


#24
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

And, there are even less mounting options for a hop! There's nowhere to put anything! We had to put my G2 on a hair tuft (you know the thing girls wear in their hair to keep it from being beautiful) and hang it on the battery. Fudged.

You know, it seems to me that an enterprising pro sound supply company could make a well-machined mount for a camera hop (like a Lectro SR, a D4, or a Zaxcom) and find a great market for such a thing -- maybe even with a companion slot for a TC generator. So far as I know, there isn't one... yet.

--Marc W.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#25
Olle Sjostrom

Olle Sjostrom
  • LocationStockholm, Sweden
Sounds to me Mark like you just got yourself a business idea!

Back to whining:

Same goes for these 5d rigs and the likes, often times they simply lack a plate or shoe adapter or anything in a comfortable space... Camera people want their cameras sound-free it would seem. And then they go: "hey there's no sound!"
I've seen some red rigs having a big bulky bar on the side where you can put hops and TC. But obviously that brings extra weight in places you probably shouldn't add extra weight.

Alexa - Red/5d = 11 - 0.

But the Alexa has tha annoying bent shape thingy on the side... At least you can put things on top of it.
http://www.tjockishjartafilm.se

#26
johnpaul215

johnpaul215
  • LocationPhiladelphia - PA - USA
So I'm almost done 3 weeks with the Epic. The fan noise is pretty bad. The new touch screen monitor has a terrible high pitched buzz to it as well. Both were issues with the Red One as well. The camera is really small and light. I think somebody said 15 lbs? Less than half of what the Red One weighs. That will change when the additional modules start shipping, but I don't know by how much.

With the Red One, we usually just put velcro on the right side over ports we wouldn't be using and that was where my business goes. The sync box usually fit under the handle too. Our Epic doesn't have a handle (!) because the place it *would* mount is occupied by the touch screen monitor.

I will say TC has been trouble free with the SB-3, and that's great. I have worked on plenty of Red One shoots where we had an issue that displayed the error "Audio Fault" (which becomes "it's audio's fault"). It's a TC error of some sort that freaks out the camera. Nothing like that with this camera in the last 17 days of filming.

As per the decision of the first AC, we velcro the SB-3 and G2 on the back of the battery. Nothing new there. It would have been a bit less to deal with if I had the Zaxcom ERX1TCD IFB (audio and TC in one box). I guess the small size of the camera makes my boxes little concern with handheld rigs, dolly, steady cam etc. For RED shoots I am only sending scratch audio 95% of the time. Most of the time it's really only for playback because somebody is syncing audio on site within a day or two. We don't have playback for this, but we also don't have anyone syncing, so they have reference audio for their dailies.

From the camera department side, we had some software issues. We tried an alpha build at first just to get playback, but had other issues so had to go to an official build. Whatever the other issues were, I never got the specifics and they were not sound related. We never had an issue that really shut us down and required a replacement/spare body.

I did not have an issue with the mini-jack audio plugs popping out (as some people said they experienced).

Think that's about it for now.

johnpaul golaski - Philadelphia PA USA - www.JOHNPAUL215.com
FCC LP Call Sign WQQM443


#27
r.paterson

r.paterson
  • Locationuk
Hello has anyone wired up unbalanced cable for the epic, is it ring tied to ground or is ring left open? on the jack...nothing in manual..thanks..Richard

#28
Rick Reineke

Rick Reineke
  • LocationNYC
Been down that road with an stereo L-R plug a few weeks ago. The AC 'insisted' there would be sound because the "green sound indicator" was lit. The meter and headphone out told me otherwise. I switched to a mono connector and all was well. So yes, ring tied to ground/shield for unbalanced.
Note: As I said, If the Tip and Ring are tied together, for feeding both channels of a 3.5mm 'stereo' input camera, it will short out... resulting in a no audio.. though the Epic will 'see' the connection, but no audio will be present.
Refugee from the spam infested RAMPS

#29
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA
There are a whole bunch of complaints on RedUser.net about the new Red Scarlet camera's audio, specifically a new problem about "audio echo" in the headphone output. I haven't dealt with a Scarlet camera yet, so I don't know what this actually means, but I'm curious what users are trying to describe.

--Marc W.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#30
Olle Sjostrom

Olle Sjostrom
  • LocationStockholm, Sweden

There are a whole bunch of complaints on RedUser.net about the new Red Scarlet camera's audio, specifically a new problem about "audio echo" in the headphone output. I haven't dealt with a Scarlet camera yet, so I don't know what this actually means, but I'm curious what users are trying to describe.

--Marc W.

That movies shot with Scarlet simply must be silent movies. Obviously.
http://www.tjockishjartafilm.se

#31
bcopenhagen

bcopenhagen
  • LocationSF Bay Area
Someone could always take Senator's advice and contact the manufacturer to see why they used the 4-pin Lemo.
My guess is that they wanted to reduce the number of surface-mount inputs for various functions, so they decided to put TC, Genlock, and GPIO Trigger all on one tiny Lemo connector. Since it's not an input connector dedicated only to TC input, it's probably good that it's NOT a 5-pin.
Still a hassle...

Last time I was around the Epic (for an underwater rig), the tech plugged the TC into the wrong BNC on the little lemo/triple-bnc adapter. We promptly found out the correct color for TC input, and I labelled all of his BNCs with their proper functions in English. I mean, really, what a nuisance to try to remember color-coding...

-Brian

#32
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

Someone could always take Senator's advice and contact the manufacturer to see why they used the 4-pin Lemo.

I did just that with Red, and their response was vague. My beef is that they've split the functions to two separate Lemo jacks. And don't get me started on their using the stereo 1/8" mini jack for balanced audio!
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#33
RPSharman

RPSharman
  • LocationCambridge - UK
This all goes back to... On a professional shoot, why are we sending sound to camera? I have never once sent sound to camera on a "real" movie. It seems that sound folks should simply say, "The camera department doesn't want it, we don't want it, you don't need it, and it will cost more and slow you down. Are you sure you want me to run sound to camera anyway?"


I find the fans, even on the lowest rolling settings to be obtrusive quite often depending on the situation, but just as frustrating is the fans in standby are often so loud that I can't track down existing noise problems in a location until the camera rolls, and it's obviously too late then. New challenges every day. That's why I love this job.


It's not too late to correct a sound problem. I simply apologize and say, "I have to fix this noise. Sorry we didn't hear it before, but this is the first time it's been quiet enough to hear it." I get a knowing nod and a smile. There's a lot to be said for being low profile on set, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to do the best job possible.

Robert

#34
studiomprd

studiomprd
  • LocationHollywood CA
" I have never once sent sound to camera on a "real" movie. "
exactly, but there you were asking about sending sound to a 7D...
there are way to many "un-real" movies out there...

" I get a knowing nod and a smile. "
That's on "real" movies... ::)
(mostly) :blink:
SENATOR Mike Michaels, c.a.s.
Studio M Productions

#35
gpiegari

gpiegari
  • LocationRichmond, VA
Those 1/8" jacks aren't balanced audio either...

________________________________________________

And don't get me started on their using the stereo 1/8" mini jack for balanced audio!


________________________________
Glen Piegari

#36
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA
I get ambiguous answers to this about the Epic input on the Red Forum. It seems like if the menu is switched one way, it's a balanced input; if it's switched another way, it's unbalanced. Very confusing. I just wish they'd come out with the (long-overdue) I/O Box that adds actual XLR balanced inputs. (They might be TA3's, but that's much better than an 1/8" mini stereo jack.)

Update: And here's a photo of the Red Pro I/O module on the back of the Epic:

Posted Image

Unless my eyes deceive me, it's 2 XLRs in, one 5-pin XLR out (!), Lemo 4-pins for timecode... not sure what they're doing for sync. Curiously, the I/O module is almost as deep as the camera... Not due out until Spring 2012.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#37
johnpaul215

johnpaul215
  • LocationPhiladelphia - PA - USA
Odd picture. They have the Pro I/O module, but the camera mounted shotgun is plugged in elsewhere (perhaps the sound cart).

IIRC the I/O module is supposed to have 2 XLR audio inputs, digital inputs etc. Does anyone remember how you would input analog audio to tracks 3 + 4? Is it using the front inputs? I couldn't find much more detail about the audio on the I/O module.

I have one semi-regular client that wants me to put primary audio on their RED One, and we cable it. Otherwise, *most* of the RED shoots I do are features and it's a mono scratch track via a G2, so I'm not sure what the I/O module would provide that we really need. I already bought the 4-pin Lemo cables, which it sounds like the I/O box still uses anyway.

I can see the "brain" using the 4-pin Lemo if they packed that little box to the gills. It does make a relatively small 3-D rig.

johnpaul golaski - Philadelphia PA USA - www.JOHNPAUL215.com
FCC LP Call Sign WQQM443


#38
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

IIRC the I/O module is supposed to have 2 XLR audio inputs, digital inputs etc. Does anyone remember how you would input analog audio to tracks 3 + 4? Is it using the front inputs? I couldn't find much more detail about the audio on the I/O module.

Neither could I! The only thing I've learned is that there used to be a "basic" I/O module and a "pro" I/O module, and Red decided to discontinue the former and only market the Pro model. But none apparently have been released yet, for reasons unknown. I think they're trying to concentrate all their resources on getting the camera bodies out first before accessories.

I have one semi-regular client that wants me to put primary audio on their RED One, and we cable it. Otherwise, *most* of the RED shoots I do are features and it's a mono scratch track via a G2, so I'm not sure what the I/O module would provide that we really need. I already bought the 4-pin Lemo cables, which it sounds like the I/O box still uses anyway.

I think the new module will have phantom-powered preamps, for shooters who want to connect a microphone directly to camera. My memory is that it's going to be around $3000, but I can't find it listed anywhere on the Red sales pages, though it has been discussed on the RedUser.net forums.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#39
Derek H

Derek H
  • LocationChicago
I just did a sync sound shoot with the epic last week.

Fan noise was okay but really ramped up as soon as they cut. A handful of times it also spun up very loud in the middle of a take (takes longer than 10 minutes or so...). The director would simply call cut at this point. At least we were all on the same page.

The more troubling problem was the audio sent to the red seemed to have some kind of terrible sounding auto gain applied to it. The DIT who was ingesting the red data let me know this discretely (nice guy). It sounded pretty bad, like someone was riding the fader super sloppy on the peaks. (hopefully not me ;)

Sound was sent to the red from my 552 at mic level using the same xlr adapter that someone posted earlier. It slides on to the rails and converts the xlrs to two 3.5mm.

Input was set to balanced in the menu. Couldn't find any settings on the red regarding limiters or auto level controls.

Glad I advocated the dual system recording, production originally wanted to just send sound to the camera.

#40
bcopenhagen

bcopenhagen
  • LocationSF Bay Area
Worked yesterday with a colleague who owns a Red ONE, and who will be upgrading to the Epic soon.
I decided I won't complain anymore about waiting for gear that is announced, then takes awhile to appear on the market. Red buyers actually have to put a several thousand dollar deposit down... AND they wait for several months.

Not looking forward to the upgrade with him (3.5mm connectors? No thank you) since we have regularly sent audio to the ONE. I guess it might mean double-system...

-Brian

#41
Alden

Alden
  • LocationStockholm, Sweden
More problems are showing up:
http://www.gearslutz...o-headache.html

Seems like the Epic drops frames on long shots because...I don't know really. Causes major pain in the a** for sync.

Sound tech active in Stockholm, doing post and location TVC.
http://aldenaudio.se/


#42
studiomprd

studiomprd
  • LocationHollywood CA
" the Epic drops frames on long shots "
it must be in drop-frame mode..?? ^_^
sound needs to go to drop frame mode, too... :blink:
finally, a use for drop frame that really involves dropping frames! :wacko:
SENATOR Mike Michaels, c.a.s.
Studio M Productions

#43
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

The more troubling problem was the audio sent to the red seemed to have some kind of terrible sounding auto gain applied to it. The DIT who was ingesting the red data let me know this discretely (nice guy). It sounded pretty bad, like someone was riding the fader super sloppy on the peaks. (hopefully not me ;) Sound was sent to the red from my 552 at mic level using the same xlr adapter that someone posted earlier. It slides on to the rails and converts the xlrs to two 3.5mm. Input was set to balanced in the menu. Couldn't find any settings on the red regarding limiters or auto level controls.

I just checked page 93 of the Red Epic manual, and there's nothing in there about auto gain -- only OFF, BAL (balanced) and UNB (unbalanced). There's not even supposed to be a limiter in the camera, as far as I know.

I don't doubt something was wrong, though. I generally don't trust the audio on Red cameras; the pictures are fine, but I think sound and timecode are very low on their priority list of things to improve and/or fix. The only time I've encountered an Epic, the camera froze when we first hooked up an audio feed, but the operator immediately rebooted it and all was well. I kept the levels conservative, and they only used it as a guide later on.

Frame-dropping is a serious problem -- under some conditions, at certain bitrates, the Epic and other cameras have been known to have issues with unrecoverable "glitches" and "black frames" (kind of like an audio mute). My guess is that the data throughput can only go so far before the processors and recording media hit the wall. There are isolated cases talking about this all over the RedUser group, but I don't know the whole story.

Frame-dropping is also an issue for editing systems where the hard drives can't keep up with the processor. Same deal with audio: I've seen Pro Tools systems start to choke if the computer is old, and the track-count starts getting very, very high. Kind of like trying to keep a 4-cylinder car at 100MPH for several hours.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#44
John Blankenship

John Blankenship
  • LocationIndianapolis
The day after a Red One shoot last week, the director/editor called me concerned that the audio was distorted. He is accustomed to using the camera audio and was cutting the two spots together on a deadline. I stopped by his studio and we popped in my Deva double-system tracks. They were fine while the Red tracks had a bit of fuzz. He was upset that he'd have to sync the tracks and mentioned that he'd never had that problem before with that particular camera.

I had been careful to double-check the levels and to keep them sufficiently low since the Red has less headroom than the usual 20dB.

All I could tell him was that Reds are known for sporadic audio and that it can change from build to build and that the sound I sent to the Red was from the exact same outputs that went to my Deva.

I also mumbled something about Alexa not having such problems.
John B., CAS

#45
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA
Yes, I have heard similar kinds of mild distortion before -- "fuzz" is a good way to describe it. I suspect that input stage is not very clean. I heard the same thing with the Fostex FR-2, just a tendency to distort early. I chalk it up to not enough headroom.

I also have heard this with really cheap Mackie boards, but not the Onyx boards, and not with the Yamaha boards.
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#46
old school

old school
  • LocationSo Cal
I'm working on a Super Bowl commercial today on the Red Studio Stages here in L A.. We are shooting on the Alexa. I guessing that there is no stipulation in the contract as to what camera can be used on the property. Just reporting from my corner of Hollywood. And that's the way it is....
CrewC
So beautiful or so what.

#47
studiomprd

studiomprd
  • LocationHollywood CA
" heard this with really cheap Mackie boards, "
Many of those had problems with the summing buss
SENATOR Mike Michaels, c.a.s.
Studio M Productions

#48
Marc Wielage

Marc Wielage
  • LocationNorthridge, CA

I'm working on a Super Bowl commercial today on the Red Studio Stages here in L A.. We are shooting on the Alexa. I guessing that there is no stipulation in the contract as to what camera can be used on the property.

Hey, The Artist shot some stuff there last year, and it was all on film!

Red CEO Jim Jannard is on vacation this week, so I think you're safe. (If you smell a cigar, start running.)
www.cinesound.tv | location sound • post-production consultant

#49
jonathan chiles

jonathan chiles
  • LocationCape Town, South Africa
I've got my first Epic shoot coming up this week. No sync dialogue just wild sound and effects needed for this commercial. I would still like to jam the Epic with TC from my 788. Short of placing an SBT/Lockit on the camera.. has anyone had good experiences jamming the Epic with TOD TC?
Jonathan Chiles CAS
www.filmsoundafrica.com

#50
Philip Perkins

Philip Perkins

I've got my first Epic shoot coming up this week. No sync dialogue just wild sound and effects needed for this commercial. I would still like to jam the Epic with TC from my 788. Short of placing an SBT/Lockit on the camera.. has anyone had good experiences jamming the Epic with TOD TC?


No, it still needs a Lockit or SBT etc of you want to hold sync with anything.

phil p