Red Epic

57 posts in this topic

#: 1   Posted

So there was an Epic thread in the Equipment category, but it seemed to wander off course... and we have this fancy Camera section!

I have a few questions...

How loud is the fan with the latest firmware? It's Fall here, the shoot will be in a house that has heat, but probably will be fairly cool. The story takes place in winter, and the cast will be wearing winter clothing (NE USA Winter, not LA Winter :) )

So the TC input really is a 4-pin Lemo... Is that something I can get made by a usual suspect? I don't think the camera department has any kind of adapter. I want to go BNC->Epic (feeding TC from an SB-3 to the camera)

I was told they have, or will have, one of these XLR->Epic adapters http://www.woodencamera.com/a-box-epic-scarlet

I think I'm going to use my usual RED One setup of a scratch feed via G2... which coincidentally comes with a minijack output cable. Hopefully that will work, and reduce camera clutter.

DP and the Director were very happy to have wireless scratch audio. I didn't get into the gritty details about adapters with them.

Anything else I should know as of the current firmware?

Thanks!

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#: 2   Posted

So there was an Epic thread in the Equipment category, but it seemed to wander off course... and we have this fancy Camera section!

I have a few questions...

So the TC input really is a 4-pin Lemo... Is that something I can get made by a usual suspect? I don't think the camera department has any kind of adapter. I want to go BNC->Epic (feeding TC from an SB-3 to the camera)

Anything else I should know as of the current firmware?

Thanks!

It's an available accessory from RED. It's also easily made by somebody not afraid of 00 Lemo connectors.

And somewhere in the new firmware, there's something that will bite us on the butt.......

Best regards,

Jim

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#: 3   Posted

Thanks Jim,

I don't think I want RED's Lemo to triple BNC breakout for this. (Fortunately) it's a single camera shoot. I'd prefer a simple single cable.

Maybe I'll order some Lemo plugs, though they are pretty expensive. A custom cable is not too much more than the bits. I'm impressed how inexpensively I have gotten TC cables made up.

Can the new firmware play breakout? It's not in the firmware on my Delvcam monitor and I'm bummed.

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#: 4   Posted

Call Bruce Tharp at Vark Audio next week. He can make you what you need exactly to your specs. And a day away from Philadelphia via UPS ground.

Best regards,

Jim

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#: 5   Posted

LSC has a 2ft Epic T/C-In cable in stock. $84.95

SJ

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#: 6   Posted

Worked with that Camera last week, but not sure which firmware it had. Why did they have to change the lemo connector ? The camera dept. had a sync cable that was the triple bnc to Lemo. I feed code down the bnc which had a white band on it from my SB-3, and the camera locked up fine. The code seemed to hold for quite a long time- 4 to 5 hours.

As for the fan, you can adjust the "percentage of running" while the camera is in record. The lowest we could get was 35%, which was not too bad as long as the camera was not right on top of the actors. It sounded like a blow dryer before we adjusted it.

Fed the camera a scratch track with a Comtek thru one of the Mini connectors ( another great idea ) which sounded quite awful. Could never get the headphone out to work. Don't know if that was a firmware deal or not. And there was no playback on the camera...seems like it needs a few updates.

Good luck, Rick

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#: 7   Posted

Mini cables should be taped down. My experience was that my minis were awfully easy to pull out of their sockets.Using their standard triple bnc cable is not a bad idea if you want to feed word/genlock as well as TC.  And camera should buy that cable. Cmon- this is a totally industry non-standard cable that can not be used again by another camera.

Knowing this- i'll probably place an order for one of these cables next week......

I've had varied experience with the fan issue. I find many DPs afraid to take the fans to their lowest setting. On one shoot when doing long takes, the camera more than once busted a take by changing to higher fan setting because it was overheating. 20-30 min takes in an air conditioned environment. Possible the camera was not setup properly but not likely.

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#: 8   Posted

Why can't we say, "Your choices are setting the fan low and cutting between takes, like the old days, or keeping rolling 20-minute takes and fucking up your sound track."

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#: 9   Posted

Toy cameras, when will they learn.

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#: 10   Posted

So there was an Epic thread in the Equipment category, but it seemed to wander off course... and we have this fancy Camera section!

I have a few questions...

How loud is the fan with the latest firmware? It's Fall here, the shoot will be in a house that has heat, but probably will be fairly cool. The story takes place in winter, and the cast will be wearing winter clothing (NE USA Winter, not LA

Thanks!

I have been working with these cameras for nearly a year now and with the new firmware . We are using them in a 3D rig so my scenario will be worse than yours . In a quiet interior the fans would be noticeable when the camera is less than 2.5 feet from the mic / actor obviously depending on the dial level , this would be average conversational level . The new firmware allows the cams to run at a lower fan speed than the 45% speed with the old firmware , but only if you don't shoot "rolling resets" where you shoot out an entire 128gig card , then the cams get too hot and need the 45% fan speed . So it seems that as Red improve the heat sinks and cooling system to allow the cams to run quieter , the directors want to shoot longer which takes us back to square one .

In summary close and wide lenses with whispered dial will be a major but we have had very few times on this movie where cam fans have caused ADR , although there have been a few .

Good luck

Tony Johnson

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#: 11   Posted

I have been fortunate enough that the Epic packages I had

to feed had the supplied 4-pin lemo breakout for TC and clock.

It has worked fine.

The mini-jack mic inputs have been a bit of an issue.

One camera had a jack that really wanted to push the plug back out.

Probably a simple defect and it was solved with tape.

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but the input is still mic level only.

Glen

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#: 12   Posted

Why did they have to change the lemo connector ?

It is kind of odd they did this. The Epic/Scarlet has pins for TC, genlock, trigger and ground.

The traditional/standard 5-pin Lemo is this: http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/lemo5/

So does the Epic only accept TC input, or do you flip the direction of that pin in a menu setting? I am looking through the manual and I take the wording to imply it is only a TC input. I never wanted a TC output on a RED, but I bet somebody has. The only TC output seems to be as part of the HDMI output.

I know these guys don't have the Lemo cable. The DP seemed surprised to hear they switched to a 4 pin Lemo, and made some comment about how much he has spent on custom TC cables for his previous RED One jobs. He did order those XLR adapters, but they are just XLR to minijack. I was under the impression that the RED Pro I/O Box (or whatever it is called) uses a different connection to give you 4 analog inputs via XLR, digital inputs, bla bla bla.

Glen - I wasn't sure if it was still only mic level. I am under the impression that will eventually change with firmware (or the I/O module). Thanks for that confirmation. The G2 can easily do both. In my experience, the RED One sounded much better at line level, so that would have been my first attempt.

John Gooch - good to know. I'll *probably* use the minijack cable from a G2, and that has a right angle end. Should be easier to tape down.

Fortunately the 1st AC is a good friend of mine that I know from years of working together. I know he will do whatever he can to be of assistance. This camera body is so much smaller that I hope we can hid my gadgets out of the way. Definite argument for switching to a Zaxcom IFB so I could send mix and TC in one little box.

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#: 13   Posted

" I don't think the camera department has any kind of adapter. "

The should (if TC is desired)

" And camera should buy that cable. "

well, at least furnish it. If sound needs to supply one, I'd make it a billable expendable!

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#: 14   Posted

It's interesting that every time a new camera surfaces there's something new and annoying about it. Why can't the industry just set standards? The only real standard is the tripod thread ring for DSLR-type cameras...

But on the bright side, now I can say to producers who want to shoot on the epic: "There's no possible way of TC so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please"

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#: 15   Posted

" so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please "

I'll be waiting to hear about when production choses it camera based on what sound wants and needs...(Sorry, I won't be holding my breath!)

At least in the past, using light sensitive, chemical emulsion film, any proper production insured that they had a sync-sound camera if they planned to capture sync-sound!!

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#: 16   Posted

" so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please "

I'll be waiting to hear about when production choses it camera based on what sound wants and needs...(Sorry, I won't be holding my breath!)

At least in the past, using light sensitive, chemical emulsion film, any proper production insured that they had a sync-sound camera if they planned to capture sync-sound!!

The Aaton cameras are really silent. Even says on their website "Production sound friendly" Brings tears to my eyes every time.

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#: 17   Posted

" so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please " I'll be waiting to hear about when production choses it camera based on what sound wants and needs...(Sorry, I won't be holding my breath!) At least in the past, using light sensitive, chemical emulsion film, any proper production insured that they had a sync-sound camera if they planned to capture sync-sound!!

I don't care as much about how the camera records sound, but if the camera is so loud that it might force ADR, that's an entirely different issue. They picked the camera before they picked me, so that's that.

It's interesting that every time a new camera surfaces there's something new and annoying about it. Why can't the industry just set standards? The only real standard is the tripod thread ring for DSLR-type cameras... But on the bright side, now I can say to producers who want to shoot on the epic: "There's no possible way of TC so I'd go for the Alexa instead, pretty please"

Why not a sync box with a newfangled Lemo4 cable? If production didn't want (to pay) a sync box on the Red One, somebody was syncing to the slate. I did that quite a few times. Heck, them not paying for sync boxes makes less work for the camera and sound departments.

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#: 18   Posted

The Aaton cameras are really silent. Even says on their website "Production sound friendly" Brings tears to my eyes every time.

I have not done a lot with the Alexa, and it wasn't in hot summer situations, but it was great.

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#: 19   Posted

I have not done a lot with the Alexa, and it wasn't in hot summer situations, but it was great.

The Alexa rocks when the fans are off. When it goes on it's clearly audible. But still not anywhere near the hell buzz of red one.

Will be working with the epic on Monday. I warned production manager about the fans. She replied: no that can't be true! Dslr-cams don't have them do why would a red!?

I raised my rate and rental and will say: "told you so" in editing

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#: 20   Posted

Somebody should do a YouTube video and show the various digital cameras in a quiet studio, and then hold a SPL Meter next to them and show exactly how much noise they really make.

--Marc W.

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#: 21   Posted

On all the epic shoots I've done, I've always requested that camera department supply the RED 3D cable, which is the lemo 4 pin to 3 BNC cable. If my memory is correct, White is TC, Green is Genlock. On a recent 2 camera epic shoot, I had one camera that worked great with a lockit box feeding TC and genlock, and the second camera would take TC, but wouldn't accept Genlock. I believe they were running different firmware versions, but I didn't have time to verify.

I generally like to own all the necessary cables I might need for a job, but I haven't committed to making this one yet, not sure if I will. It's too specific, and the productions I work on won't pay extra for it, so my solution is to require them to supply it, or sync via slate or plural eyes. Their choice.

I find the fans, even on the lowest rolling settings to be obtrusive quite often depending on the situation, but just as frustrating is the fans in standby are often so loud that I can't track down existing noise problems in a location until the camera rolls, and it's obviously too late then. New challenges every day. That's why I love this job.

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#: 22   Posted

I did an Epic (not very Epic in any other way tho) shoot yesterday. Luckily, we were in an extremely noisy environment so I never got to hear the fans. Once or twice I snuck in close with the boom to hear them, and to me they didn't sound that loud, not louder than the Red One anyway. But I'm sure when push comes to shove the Epic is gonna shove it even harder.

But, I never want to work with it again. I have never seen such an agitated DP before. He was annoyed at everything this camera did, how it was built, how it performed.. My god. If you want to make any changes on the camera, you have to plug in the LCD screen. The LCD screen and the viewfinder can not be plugged in simultaneously. WHAT!? Fudged.

And, there are even less mounting options for a hop! There's nowhere to put anything! We had to put my G2 on a hair tuft (you know the thing girls wear in their hair to keep it from being beautiful) and hang it on the battery. Fudged. And don't get me started on their menu UI... the levels don't even show on the screen where you set the levels... what's up with that?

The rental house even sent a complimentary RED One body, just in case. :) Funny.

We didn't use TC at all actually. There was however a standard 5-pin lemo to 4-pin lemo cable supplied. I just think it's weird they actually went to change their connectors...

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#: 23   Posted

I find the fans, even on the lowest rolling settings to be obtrusive quite often depending on the situation, but just as frustrating is the fans in standby are often so loud that I can't track down existing noise problems in a location until the camera rolls, and it's obviously too late then. New challenges every day. That's why I love this job.

That was always a major issue I had with the RED One. It would even mask something like a refrigerator, or HVAC, that was turned back on.

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#: 24   Posted

And, there are even less mounting options for a hop! There's nowhere to put anything! We had to put my G2 on a hair tuft (you know the thing girls wear in their hair to keep it from being beautiful) and hang it on the battery. Fudged.

You know, it seems to me that an enterprising pro sound supply company could make a well-machined mount for a camera hop (like a Lectro SR, a D4, or a Zaxcom) and find a great market for such a thing -- maybe even with a companion slot for a TC generator. So far as I know, there isn't one... yet.

--Marc W.

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#: 25   Posted

Sounds to me Mark like you just got yourself a business idea!

Back to whining:

Same goes for these 5d rigs and the likes, often times they simply lack a plate or shoe adapter or anything in a comfortable space... Camera people want their cameras sound-free it would seem. And then they go: "hey there's no sound!"

I've seen some red rigs having a big bulky bar on the side where you can put hops and TC. But obviously that brings extra weight in places you probably shouldn't add extra weight.

Alexa - Red/5d = 11 - 0.

But the Alexa has tha annoying bent shape thingy on the side... At least you can put things on top of it.

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