bigmaho Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Just a quick note to expand on a thread currently on the Buy /Sell Board, I just switched my cart power supply to the Remote Audio Meon LiFe and I'm VERY happy. It's a small, one rack space ps with 10 XLR outputs and 2 USB ports AND an internal 20 amp battery. As a test yesterday it ran my full cart for 3 hours before I shut it down for the night. I also had it run on mains all day and it never heated up. I had two previous supplies, the Power Max Ultra and then the Power Star. The Power Star only weighed 5 lbs and used an external battery. I'm amazed that the LiFe only adds 6 lbs but includes such a powerful internal battery. Of course you can also supplement it with an external battery. Nice piece of gear. All the best for the New Year, Billy Sarokin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 I'm getting one for my cart next week. I want to talk to Glen Trew first in person about some of the design of the Meon LiFe4. As you may know, I have used for the last 12 years or more, cart power supplies that I have built myself, always utilizing lead acid batteries and a AC powered regulated DC power supply. Stayed away from anything that involved "charging" the battery or any supply that powers the gear directly using AC. The AC to DC regulated power supplies that I use are medical grade, low AC ripple, rigidly spec'ed supplies, and the DC they put out is always "buffered" by floating across a fully charged battery. What I would like to know from Glen is how the noiseless and seamless switchover is accomplished when operating on DC from battery and then DC from AC to DC power supply. I do know that this works (already utilized in the full size Meon) I just want to understand it all up to the limits of my ability to understand these things electrically and circuit-wise. Additionally, I would like to know if there is some provision for the DC voltage at the outputs to stay constant --- obviously if it is on battery alone, voltage will drop over time, but when plugged in to AC (and operating the gear on DC AND charging the battery), will this output always be the same (nominal 13.5 vdc for example)? The weight savings was the primary goal for me when I started building supplies using the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, but my lack of engineering know-how and limited fabrication facility never allowed me to build anything as elegant as the RemoteAudio Meon LiFe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthias Richter Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Additionally, I would like to know if there is some provision for the DC voltage at the outputs to stay constant --- obviously if it is on battery alone, voltage will drop over time, but when plugged in to AC (and operating the gear on DC AND charging the battery), will this output always be the same (nominal 13.5 vdc for example)? Jeff did your homemade power supply stay at a nominal voltage? I have my PSU set to 13.8V and with 150W but only drawing 4A max I expected that it would hold it there but it drops down to 12.9V - 13.2V depending how much I draw. The other thing I miss on all the PSU´s offered are switches to switch on/off the gear. I like to switch off units (especially if running off battery) that are not in use (2nd monitor, light, loudspeaker, antenna amp etc.) without pulling out any shelfs. Do you guys just have ALL your gear powered all the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Jeff, I have had all sorts of gear hooked up to any number of PSC power supplies. They remarkably switch over to battery and back with no noise. They charge at various rates, depending on recharge requirements, all without noise. I expect GT's supplies are equally as elegant. You'll not regret having the space and weight savings, even if you can't wrap your head around the engineering. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmaho Posted December 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 @ Matthias, most of my gear stays on, but if I need to conserve power I shut down my computer, monitors and extra receivers when not needed. Most of the power supplies I've used, the NRG Power Station, Power Star/Power Max and now the LiFe seem to stay within .1v when powered off the mains no matter how many amps my cart is drawing. As for stray noises, most of my cart is line level so it's dead quiet. Only 2 inputs are mic level (from my Audio Ltd receivers). If I boost all my gains to max I can hear a little noise on one of them that I think comes from the home brew rf amp I use to feed the antenna output from my Zaxcom receiver racks to 2 Audio Ltds and one spectrum analyzer. The original source seems to be the Comtek Base Station transmitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 " Do you guys just have ALL your gear powered all the time? " no... I sometimes shut off things not being used to conserve battery power... " it drops down to 12.9V - 13.2V depending how much I draw. " the ones with voltage regulators are preferred, and if you really need to regulate, an external regulator isn't too complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 I, too, have found some stray noise from Comtek basestation. But all inputs are line level, except slate mic. Jeff and Don still cable up, I believe, so results may vary. I only turn stuff off when on DC, but I can run a LONG time on my Optima, so I don't really worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 On a related part of this topic; what's the consensus on how TSA officials at air freight facilities might deal with a device with an internal Lithium battery? There is inconsistency on their reasoning for removing batteries of all types from commercial airlines. On my last project, where all the equipment was air freighted to Atlanta, with out any advance notice, they removed my AGM Marine battery, but ignored the lead acid pelican and a similar one built by Chindha. The front plate of the Meon LiFe indicates what's inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 If the TSA does their research, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries should be considered differently than the common Lithium batteries. One of the advantages of the Iron-Phosphate battery cell is substantially less volatility amongst other things. From Wikipedia: "The LiFePO4 battery uses a lithium-ion-derived chemistry and shares many of its advantages and disadvantages with other Lithium-ion battery chemistries. However, one key advantage over other lithium-ion batteries is the superior thermal and chemical stability, which provides better safety characteristics than lithium-ion batteries with other cathode materials.[6] Due to significantly stronger bonds between the oxygen atoms in the phosphate (compared to the cobalt), oxygen is not readily released, and as a result, lithium iron phosphate cells are virtually incombustible in the event of mishandling during charge or discharge, and can handle high temperatures without decomposing.[6]" The TSA has typically behaved in very arbitrary and unpredictable ways, as Robert and Richard have mentioned. On one of my trips out of the US, the TSA quarantined all of my loudspeakers since they contained MAGNETS! This same shipment had no problem with any of my battery blocks, mostly lead acid variety, and a whole mess of disposable lithium CR123 batteries. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmaho Posted December 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Good question. It was shipped to me in a box marked 'Hazardous Materials'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Jeff did your homemade power supply stay at a nominal voltage? The other thing I miss on all the PSU´s offered are switches to switch on/off the gear. Do you guys just have ALL your gear powered all the time? My cart power supplies to keep a constant regulated voltage to the gear but there can be a .1 to .5 volt fluctuation depending on the equipment powered up. Regarding turning things off, I have always built into the cart DC distribution to various points near the cart shelves where the equipment rides. These distribution/connection points are basically aluminum chassis boxes with 4-pin XLR female connectors. On a few of them I have also installed a toggle switch. I have done a few where I put the toggle switch actually on the connector --- drilling a hole in one of the corners where there is not already a hole (for mounting screws) I install the switch there. With the switch in place I just turn the connector "off" and that powers down the equipment connected. But to answer your question more specifically, I generally leave all the gear ON for the full day, particularly when I know AC (mains) will be available all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Looks like there are a few questions to be answered, but I first wanted to respond to Billy's post made on the Buy/Sell forum: Hi Glenn, One thing the Power Star had over the LiFe was an amp meter. My cart usually draws about 8 - 9 amps. And you are correct about the weight. The Power Star is very light, weighing only 5 lbs, but it doesn't include a battery, so I had to lug one of their 30 amp batteries around. I think it's incredible now that my cart is totally self powering fo around 3 hours without an external battery! For days when I need to go longer, I made a short jumper from the 4 pin xlr on the LiFe to a Speakon chassis mount and installed the Speakon port on the side of the cart so I can plug in my Pelican case batteries or my large AGM. One suggestion, also make an extra LiFe module in a case (with both 4 pin and Speakon connectors). Hi Billy, The Meon LiFe does have the ability to give current draw information in AMPs, but requires the optional Remote Audio RM remote meter (http://www.remoteaudio.com/rm/). It plugs into the back, and gives a remote display of volts and amps, and gives remote ON/OFF ability. It was made an option to keep the price of the Meon LiFe low. The RM is the same remote meter used on the Meon v2, BDS v3, BDS v4, Hot Strip, and Shunt Box. Regarding adding a Speakon connector to the Meon Extra LiFe modules... The Extra LiFe was intended for use with the Meon LiFe, as a supplemental external battery. The higher current rated 4-pin XLR connectors are used on the Extra Life connectors and the Meon LiFe input connector. Also, these connectors combine pins 1-2 and pins 3-4, which doubles the rated capacity of the contacts. Further, since the intention is to use the Meon Extra LiFe with the Meon LiFe, which would cause both battery packs to be drawn from equally, thus reducing the amount of current flowing through the connectors by half, the beefier (and much less common) Speakon connector is not needed. But you bring up an interesting idea... That is, the idea of using the Meon Extra LiFe as a 1-rack space external battery in place of a traditional Lead Acid Pelican case battery. Since the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries used in the Meon LiFe and Extra LiFe charge very much like a lead acid battery, the Extra LiFe module could certainly be used as a Pelican battery replacement, with the advantage of lighter weight, smaller size, better general performance, and convenient mounting. If using an off-the-shelf lead acid charger, I would probably limit the size to 6 Amps per 20A/hr battery pack, though. For example, a 10A or 12A (or smaller) charger should be OK for the "Extra LiFe 40" Best, Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmaho Posted December 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Thanks for the info Glenn. The remote could come in handy if I'm on a shoot where I'm relying on battery power a lot. Usually I just need the batteries during set up, or when I'm moving the cart and for the occasional shot where there is no power handy. Jumping the leads ion the 4 pins is a good idea, I was just thinking of the Speakons because there are many Pelican battery cases already with Speakons. Instead of changing all my battery cases I just installed a Speakon on the side of my cart. If you put together a case version of your battery having both connectors on board would mean people could use it easily for whatever power supply they have. Thanks again for a nice new piece of gear. All the best, Billy Looks like there are a few questions to be answered, but I first wanted to respond to Billy's post made on the Buy/Sell forum: Hi Billy, The Meon LiFe does have the ability to give current draw information in AMPs, but requires the optional Remote Audio RM remote meter (http://www.remoteaudio.com/rm/). It plugs into the back, and gives a remote display of volts and amps, and gives remote ON/OFF ability. It was made an option to keep the price of the Meon LiFe low. The RM is the same remote meter used on the Meon v2, BDS v3, BDS v4, Hot Strip, and Shunt Box. Regarding adding a Speakon connector to the Meon Extra LiFe modules... The Extra LiFe was intended for use with the Meon LiFe, as a supplemental external battery. The higher current rated 4-pin XLR connectors are used on the Extra Life connectors and the Meon LiFe input connector. Also, these connectors combine pins 1-2 and pins 3-4, which doubles the rated capacity of the contacts. Further, since the intention is to use the Meon Extra LiFe with the Meon LiFe, which would cause both battery packs to be drawn from equally, thus reducing the amount of current flowing through the connectors by half, the beefier (and much less common) Speakon connector is not needed. But you bring up an interesting idea... That is, the idea of using the Meon Extra LiFe as a 1-rack space external battery in place of a traditional Lead Acid Pelican case battery. Since the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries used in the Meon LiFe and Extra LiFe charge very much like a lead acid battery, the Extra LiFe module could certainly be used as a Pelican battery replacement, with the advantage of lighter weight, smaller size, better general performance, and convenient mounting. If using an off-the-shelf lead acid charger, I would probably limit the size to 6 Amps per 20A/hr battery pack, though. For example, a 10A or 12A (or smaller) charger should be OK for the "Extra LiFe 40" Best, Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 If the TSA does their research, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries should be considered differently than the common Lithium batteries. One of the advantages of the Iron-Phosphate battery cell is substantially less volatility amongst other things. From Wikipedia: "The LiFePO4 battery uses a lithium-ion-derived chemistry and shares many of its advantages and disadvantages with other Lithium-ion battery chemistries. However, one key advantage over other lithium-ion batteries is the superior thermal and chemical stability, which provides better safety characteristics than lithium-ion batteries with other cathode materials.[6] Due to significantly stronger bonds between the oxygen atoms in the phosphate (compared to the cobalt), oxygen is not readily released, and as a result, lithium iron phosphate cells are virtually incombustible in the event of mishandling during charge or discharge, and can handle high temperatures without decomposing.[6]" The TSA has typically behaved in very arbitrary and unpredictable ways, as Robert and Richard have mentioned. On one of my trips out of the US, the TSA quarantined all of my loudspeakers since they contained MAGNETS! This same shipment had no problem with any of my battery blocks, mostly lead acid variety, and a whole mess of disposable lithium CR123 batteries. Go figure. Good topic, as there is a lot of confusion about this... Batteries using Lithium Ion chemistry have been considered a hazardous material because the earlier types were very unstable when in contact with oxygen and water (they would catch fire!). This is the main reason Nickel Metal batteries had been the primary battery of Hybrid cars. The Lithium Polymer batteries such as the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries used in the Meon LiFe are very stable and are not at risk of catching fire like earlier Lithium batteries, which is why electric cars are now switching to Lithium Polymer. However, since the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are still of the Lithium Ion chemistry, and since the amount of hazard is technically determined by the amount of Lithium content by weight, the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries used in the Meon LiFe are still technically categorized as hazardous material, even though they are not hazardous. In fact, any 12V Lithium Ion battery pack with a capacity of 10A/hr or more still falls into this category. I'm sure this is just a matter of government agencies catching up with the advancing technology, but to be on the safe side of the regulations, Remote Audio ships the Meon LiFe per the hazardous material rules, with proper documentation. This amounts to an addition charge by UPS and FedEx ($10, if I recall). The shipping department has to jump through a bunch of annoying hoops, too. For this reason, Remote Audio suggests that dealers drop-ship to customers who will not be picking up the product locally. Regarding airline transport, I have checked the Meon LiFe as luggage multiple times, explaining to the agents what they were, and they were handled like any other luggage with no special treatment. GT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 Glen, Not trying to split hairs but when a broker is dealing with shipping the equipment and the TSA inspector looks at the cart and sees the Meon and gets officious over the battery self contained - what happens then? We are not there to explain or armed with the correct documentation. Jeff calling their action capricious is totally accurate. When they decide to remove safe batteries and miss the "hazardous" ones what happens then? I'm in total support of the batteries you are using and I'm only harping on this issue because there is no clear procedure with the TSA. From now on when I air ship, I've resorted to placing my big AGM battery into a pelican case so it just becomes "another case", listed on a manifest as a "Power supply". Most importantly, the Meon LiFe looks like another winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 " . When they decide to remove safe batteries " and what happens to them?? I suspect that "Cart Power" or even "Meon LiFe" does not equal "battery" to these folks, It is just a rack unit, even a "power supply", but...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 All of these discussions, about terminology, recognizability of what is a battery, what is a hazard, still fall under the arbitrary and unpredictable behavior of the TSA. We can go on telling anecdotal stories, I have a lot of them, but we will all be faced with the real possibility of trouble and disruption when we go to ship our gear. I don't think Richard is splitting hairs but I also think that Glen and RemoteAudio, though rightly concerned about this issue, have no direct responsibility regarding this new product and the TSA trouble it could cause. I would hope that no one in any of these posts is indicating that this new product is somehow tainted because it uses "Lithium" batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 Not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 I would hope that no one in any of these posts is indicating that this new product is somehow tainted because it uses "Lithium" batteries. I think it's more a function of the TSA being tainted because it uses "Stupid" people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 Hey, John, what's happened to your Profile image? I'm getting the old ? in a blue box. Did you ever have an image and it's gone away or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 I'm about ready to pull the trigger on one of these but had read this on the product description: It is possible to have unwanted audible noise induced into audio systems by a common (shared) power source. To optimize your system, it is recommended to use line level signals instead of mic level signals whenever practical. Also, turn phantom voltage off of all preamp inputs that are connected to non-microphone devices. If noise is still heard, unplug one device at a time from the MEON, noticing any change in noise associated with the removal of each device. If the noise goes away after unplugging a particular device, try powering that device with a separate battery. If using a separate battery causes the noise to go away, then the problem is a ground loop associated with the combination of a common power source and audio grounding schemes. Be aware that this noise will not be removed with "LC" filters found in some cart power supplies So, how big of a problem is this? Anyone find this to be a big enough issue for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthias Richter Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Well - I am still working on a solution to power my IFB100 from the same source as the rest of my cart. At the moment it is not possible and I need to power it from a single NP1 source. Just ordered a "ground-loop-isolator". Will see if that makes any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I'm about ready to pull the trigger on one of these but had read this on the product description: So, how big of a problem is this? Anyone find this to be a big enough issue for them? First of all, most all of these problems or potential problems indicated in great detail for the Meon power supply, are potential problems with ANY and all power supplies. The Meon Life is not any more prone to exhibiting these problems than any other supply --- Remote Audio has just gone to greater lengths, I'm sure in an effort to help solve any problems you might encounter, than some of the other product manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Well - I am still working on a solution to power my IFB100 from the same source as the rest of my cart. At the moment it is not possible and I need to power it from a single NP1 source. Just ordered a "ground-loop-isolator". Will see if that makes any difference. I was not able to solve this one either for my IFB 100 --- I built a separate power supply just for the IFB 100. Annoying but not a big deal. I will add that I had a similar problem with my Lectrosonics IFB transmitter I had many years ago --- if powered from a common battery supply it would always exhibit an acceptable whine that I could never eliminate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 First of all, most all of these problems or potential problems indicated in great detail for the Meon power supply, are potential problems with ANY and all power supplies. The Meon Life is not any more prone to exhibiting these problems than any other supply --- Remote Audio has just gone to greater lengths, I'm sure in an effort to help solve any problems you might encounter, than some of the other product manufacturers. Thanks for the info. Since I've never had my own power supply yet I wasn't sure if this was a big issue with this specific unit. I called Remote Audio earlier today and was told the same thing you are saying now. According to their rep, the paragraph I quoted earlier was more so a troubleshooting guide. Are you using the Meon Life on your current gig? Sheesh, isn't it close to midnight where you're at? Can't get to sleep huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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